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Programming Improv Q&D with jerks?

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BobbyBaccala

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I was curious if anyone has experimented with running the Q&D snatch protocol with jerks or even long cycle? Planning on starting a block soon but this thought crept in my mind about implementing the J or even C&J.

Cheers!
 
BobbyBaccala said:
I was curious if anyone has experimented with running the Q&D snatch protocol with jerks or even long cycle? Planning on starting a block soon but this thought crept in my mind about implementing the J or even C&J.

Cheers!
Click to expand...
So - I'm just wrapping up 12 weeks of Q&D snatches - and prior to that, I was using long cycle, clean & press, or push press, with up to 40kg for many weeks at least a couple months.

I wouldn't count on Clean & Jerk to deliver within the Q&D framework.
I'd take heavy clean&jerk to an Iron cardio routine.
I'd take the Jerk to a Kettlebell Strongfirst routine - Opposite cleans in the schedule.

The closest I'd get to those kinds of movements in Q&D would be Viking Push Press, to get a high enough tempo out of it - which would play into Q&D much better. and I would organize that opposite the swing in 033 format.

Swings and VPP would be a good combo.
 
I recently purchased IC and it’s great had fun with a few sessions. I am looking to get into something that can carry over to my BJJ (yes I know the obvious answer is KBSF) but out of the two Q&D plans would the push-up swing combo or snatch protocol be better?

Appreciate y’all
 
BobbyBaccala said:
I recently purchased IC and it’s great had fun with a few sessions. I am looking to get into something that can carry over to my BJJ (yes I know the obvious answer is KBSF) but out of the two Q&D plans would the push-up swing combo or snatch protocol be better?

Appreciate y’all
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I find there to be a 5% difference in perceived effort between the two protocols. 033 seems slightly easier to me. but only just.

but that I think will be determined by what the loading is.

For example:
I'm a big heavy guy at 250 lbs. for me, I need a band deload for the pushups in this program at this time.
for the swing, I'd need a 32kg bell, to make the juice worth the squeeze.
for the snatch, my 24kg bell is a good fit for now. but it's just begun feeling a bit light.

I'd say as a supplement to IC - I'd include one snatch - and one swing and pushup / per week to see which one you think is a better fit for your conditioning response. and maybe do IC most days and include Q&D on occasion to help supplement your strength. and IC allows you to do a lot of massaging the loading for each session so that you can effectively manage your strength adaptations. it's just much more of a swiss army knife of a program. Q&D seems more like a jewel thief - get one thing - and get out. nice and clean. it's an incredibly valuable thing, and its effects are far-reaching for a small cost - but - it's very focused. I would take IC and play with variations to find my path to the qualities I want more of in myself for my sport.
 
Adachi said:
I find there to be a 5% difference in perceived effort between the two protocols. 033 seems slightly easier to me. but only just.

but that I think will be determined by what the loading is.

For example:
I'm a big heavy guy at 250 lbs. for me, I need a band deload for the pushups in this program at this time.
for the swing, I'd need a 32kg bell, to make the juice worth the squeeze.
for the snatch, my 24kg bell is a good fit for now. but it's just begun feeling a bit light.

I'd say as a supplement to IC - I'd include one snatch - and one swing and pushup / per week to see which one you think is a better fit for your conditioning response. and maybe do IC most days and include Q&D on occasion to help supplement your strength. and IC allows you to do a lot of massaging the loading for each session so that you can effectively manage your strength adaptations. it's just much more of a swiss army knife of a program. Q&D seems more like a jewel thief - get one thing - and get out. nice and clean. it's an incredibly valuable thing, and its effects are far-reaching for a small cost - but - it's very focused. I would take IC and play with variations to find my path to the qualities I want more of in myself for my sport.
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Extremely grateful for your insight! Think I will do 2 days of Q&D and 2-3 days of IC.
 
I have actually done a six-week block of 044 with double jerk - 2x18kg (1/2 BW). I usually did 5/4, which was one clean then five jerks. Sometimes I did 10/2. It was a lot of fun. I got great at jerks. More speed (you can do 5 jerks in less than 15 sec, the original time parameters of the program), more endurance, I felt great, and I think my conditioning got better. I had difficulty adding other lifts as assistance, though, so I was mostly doing jerks. Fatigue after jerks made the session made more lifts harder. My conditioning is better now, but I also don't use HS jerk technique anymore.

I have moved away from doing hardstyle jerks, because IMO the GS rack and jerk is far far more comfortable and makes more sense for long jerk sets. I realize that my own training is something if a hybrid--I've been a HS practitioner, but I recently switched to primarily GS, since jerk and LC are my jam.

My problem I ran into with doing 044 was that I felt like I was using bells too light for effective results of HS programming (which was true) in a closer-to-GS manner of training (in which min on/min off intervals are common--not too different from doing QnD, but less staggered). Things is with jerks, like every other lift with kettlebells, is that if you want to jerk a lot, you must jerk a lot. That's why GS training uses such high volume with lighter weight, as opposed to lower volume with higher weight.

So, IMHO, use HS snatch or swing for QnD, do HS higher-weight C&J for low volume (the BJJ plan), or lighter weight for looong sets and high volume (GS approach, GS technique).
 
ntapsak said:
I have actually done a six-week block of 044 with double jerk - 2x18kg (1/2 BW). I usually did 5/4, which was one clean then five jerks. Sometimes I did 10/2. It was a lot of fun. I got great at jerks. More speed (you can do 5 jerks in less than 15 sec, the original time parameters of the program), more endurance, I felt great, and I think my conditioning got better. I had difficulty adding other lifts as assistance, though, so I was mostly doing jerks. Fatigue after jerks made the session made more lifts harder. My conditioning is better now, but I also don't use HS jerk technique anymore.

I have moved away from doing hardstyle jerks, because IMO the GS rack and jerk is far far more comfortable and makes more sense for long jerk sets. I realize that my own training is something if a hybrid--I've been a HS practitioner, but I recently switched to primarily GS, since jerk and LC are my jam.

My problem I ran into with doing 044 was that I felt like I was using bells too light for effective results of HS programming (which was true) in a closer-to-GS manner of training (in which min on/min off intervals are common--not too different from doing QnD, but less staggered). Things is with jerks, like every other lift with kettlebells, is that if you want to jerk a lot, you must jerk a lot. That's why GS training uses such high volume with lighter weight, as opposed to lower volume with higher weight.

So, IMHO, use HS snatch or swing for QnD, do HS higher-weight C&J for low volume (the BJJ plan), or lighter weight for looong sets and high volume (GS approach, GS technique).
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Awesome insight thank you! I just bought KBSF as well so now I don’t know what the hell I am gonna do. So much great content at my finger tips. Sigh.
 
Adachi said:
Swings and VPP would be a good combo.
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I’ve just started experimenting with VPP and swings. I enjoy it quite a bit. I’m a long way from comfortably using my 24kg or higher on the VPP though. It’s a nice variation from doing 033 with push-ups.
 
BobbyBaccala said:
I was curious if anyone has experimented with running the Q&D snatch protocol with jerks or even long cycle? Planning on starting a block soon but this thought crept in my mind about implementing the J or even C&J.

Cheers!
Click to expand...

Adachi said:
wouldn't count on Clean & Jerk to deliver within the Q&D framework.
Click to expand...

Yes, please read the chapter The Power Drills of Choice:

Pavel in Q&D said:
Although it involves more muscle groups than any lift I can think of, the long cycle relays the work between muscle groups in such a way that no participant gets too smoked: dip, drive, second dip, lock out, dip, and catch. The C&J’s multistage nature slows down the cellular fuels’ depletion. It is a tremendous asset in some types of training (such as classic Soviet anti-glycolytic protocols), but it works against you when you are trying to use up your substrates ASAP.
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I haven't done strong endurance yet but based on what I have noticed the jerk or clean and jerk take much longer to complete vs a snatch or swing so you're potentially already dipping into mild glycolisis by extending the duration of a set

What I would like to know is why do you want to use a Q and D type work to rest approach with such movements? What do you plan to get you of such an approach??
 
Mark Limbaga said:
I haven't done strong endurance yet but based on what I have noticed the jerk or clean and jerk take much longer to complete vs a snatch or swing so you're potentially already dipping into mild glycolisis by extending the duration of a set

What I would like to know is why do you want to use a Q and D type work to rest approach with such movements? What do you plan to get you of such an approach??
Click to expand...
Mark,
I wasn’t planning on doing those movements, more so curious if anyone had done them in said protocol. The curiosity came from myself loving the Jerk. After stopping to actually think about it and after reading the quote by Pavel that Bauer posted it clearly would not achieve the desired stimulus of pure power.

I have never done a dedicated cycle of Q&D and wanted to give it a shot. Although, I did just read the article about the swing and get up protocol which triggered me to buy KBSF. I do think I could use a bit more mass and I know the PDF specifically states the rep protocols are there to prevent that due to weight classes in BJJ. I am kind of leaning towards running the 033 protocol and continuous get up days in between to get the best of both worlds.
 
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BobbyBaccala said:
Makes a ton of sense, should probably leave it to the professionals and stick with the given exercise selections.
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The way I rephrase this to myself is ...
This book - program - protocol - didn't come knocking on my door to tell me what to do.

I went to the book because I was looking for information.
And, Hypothetically, for me to give it short shrift by changing something that might be important - and then blaming the program - is a very backward scenario.

so - all that to say - (as they say in music) - Play the ink. Play what's written on the page before you start trying to outsmart it, add to it, to make it "better" than the author.

Do the program as written, before considering changes.
follow through, and then evaluate.
 
BobbyBaccala said:
Mark,
I wasn’t planning on doing those movements, more so curious if anyone had done them in said protocol. The curiosity came from myself loving the Jerk. After stopping to actually think about it and after reading the quote by Pavel that Bauer posted it clearly would not achieve the desired stimulus of pure power.

I have never done a dedicated cycle of Q&D and wanted to give it a shot. Although, I did just read the article about the swing and get up protocol which triggered me to buy KBSF. I do think I could use a bit more mass and I know the PDF specifically states the rep protocols are there to prevent that due to weight classes in BJJ. I am kind of leaning towards running the 033 protocol and continuous get up days in between to get the best of both worlds.
Click to expand...

What I would do .

If you want to fill in your weight class: I would do something like the giant but use the clean and jerk and only eat in a mild surplus and then do 044 and getups on other days
 
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