PlanStrong/BuiltStrong Question about NL and progression

[jaku]

In the Plan Strong manual, there is a recommended number of NL depending on whether it's PS50 or PS70. In my personal experience, my deadlift range is 200-250NL so I set my current program at 230, which is slightly under a 20% increase from what I was doing which was Easy Strength (200NL).

My question(s)

1. How much should I vary the NL from one prep phase to the next? Example: I'm doing 230NL for DL, so do I do 228 or 233 next? (I imagine varying should go in either direction, but what factors would I base the direction? Is it a personal feeling or is it a forward/backward type variant such as 230, 228, 230, 233, 230, 233, 236)

2. Apparently there is no MAX to NL a person can do theoretically, but obviously your central nervous system can only take so much volume in a given month. I'm curious to know if it's wise to keep your NL in the 200-250 range (or any other recommended range within the manual) and focus on increasing 1RM?
This is progression, and also keeps your time in the gym lower because a higher NL means a longer workout.

3. Let's say you make a PlanStrong Program for 1 type of lift. Deadlift, and the other 4 lifts (Squat, Pullup, Military Press) you decide to maintain with Easy Strength. Easy Strength is a 200NL program roughly (at least in my personal use of it). But let's also say you have done PlanStrong programs with the other 3 lifts at a higher NL, would you be technically under-working? Or is it okay because you are still working at 75% of your 1RM which is theoretically always scaling up.

I ask these questions because even at 230NL, I've noticed that I'm at the gym for much longer than I've ever been. I can only imagine how long people workout when they somehow make it to 600NL. But I imagine only professional athletes have that type of time because that's all they do. So how does the regular man progress with PlanStrong for many years without taxing out on volume.

My intuition is telling me that pushing your 1RM is the key while keeping your NL within the recommended parameters in the manual.

 

[Steve Freides]

If memory serves, the guidance is to vary NL in consecutive prep periods by 20%. For comp, the volume is always less.

You may also find that a lower NL fits your needs better in terms of gym time - perhaps not ideal in terms of increasing 1RM but that's an acceptable compromise.

Another thought - although one can be on PS programs forever, one could also vary things and, e.g., during a particularly busy period of life, do a minimalist program like PTTP.

-S-

 

[jaku]

Would 200-250 (which is in the manual) be considered optimal to stay within and work to increase 1RM? (Prep)

Why is it that I would have to increase my NL to push my 1RM further? I'll be consulting the manual again to find any references to this correlation.

 

[william bad butt]

Personal opinion:
If you were used to 200 NL you should have stayed there. Actually, I would have started at 150 NL (manual says 150 to 250 for deadlift). I am assuming that Easy Strength has a much lower ARI than this program, which I assume is about 70%, so I would have dropped the NL. Switching from Easy Strength to this type of programming will already force an adaption. Keep the NL as low as you can. You can't spend your life in the gym, you must live your life!!! Always try to do as little as you need (why do more work than necessary). I'm following a powerlifting program, training for a meet in September, and my NL for deadlifts is about 60 (not a Planstrong program, obviously, and not including g accessories). I would only make tiny increases in the NL from month to month. Start at 150, next month do 155, at 70% ARI, next month, 160. Unless I was transitioning to a Competition phase, I would drop NL by 30% and slightly increase the ARI.

It should take a long time for you to get to 250 NL. Once you do get there, I personally would not add more deadlifts. I would start adding assistance excersises like Pavel recommends in the Planstrong book.

I'm going to pass on answering question #3 for now. I dont understand your comment about 75%. Can you elaborate?

Why must you increase your NL? Because as you get stronger, your body will be less willing to adapt and get stronger. On average, deadlift max will increase by less weight each year. So you must work harder and harder to get stronger. Each lb on your deadlift will cost more and more. So working harder means more volume. Its biology. Stress, recovery, adaptation.

These are my opinions. I am not a Strongfirst employee or trainer. Just a garage gorilla .

Regards,

Eric

 

[jaku]

William,

Everything you said makes sense. Yesterday, I came to the same conclusions. I believe I jumped into the deep end based off of my experience with Easy Strength. The ARI is nowhere near the same and it wasn't something I originally took into account.

I'm going to stop my Deadlift plan strong for now. The other lifts seem to be doing fine for some reason, probably because I'm used to doing them and Deadlifts is a newer exercise and also very stressful.

Thank you!

 

[Steve Freides]

@jaku,

For strength, the goal is to lift as heavy as possible, as much volume as possible, while remaining as fresh as possible. Improve any of those three things and you will get stronger. The problems begin when increasing one of the variables causes the others to decrease. E.g., you go heavier but you can't recover as well and, as a result, your volume has to drop. Or you start lifting more volume but you can't recover as well and you have to lighten the weights. Try to change the laws of physics here and you'll get hurt and have a force decrease in weight and volume.

So, we are left with a single variable we can change over time: increasing our lifting volume. If we can change nothing but this variable, which means we can maintain our heavy weights and we can still recover adequately, we will become stronger. So, a gradual, randomized by PS variables but increasing over time, approach to volume is a sure route to success. PS has all the variables and right percentages of 1RM to allow sufficient recovery.

-S-

 

[william bad butt]

Jaku,

Good luck! If you need help with your Planstrong program let me know. There are probably better resources on this forum but I've made a few programs for myself and some friends.

Regards

Eric

 

[william bad butt]

Some of my other opinions about the deadlift:

-Dont lift above 85% unless you are doing a Competition phase.
-Although this is somewhat contrary to what we were taught. I am not afraid to use a lower ARI than 70% on the deadlift. May e 65%.
-Always use the lower rep scheme. Pavel had 2 options: Those with good and those with poor recovery. Always use the latter for barbell lifts.
-Probably controversial... Dont worry too much about the eccentric. Dont be afraid to drop the weights (controlled drop please). Especially if you are training other lifts.
-Maybe controversial... Standup and reset in between each rep, as if you are always doing singles.
-Prior to deadlifting, do a few sets of 5 of swings (2 hands on 1 kettlebell) with about 25% to 33% of your body weight. These should be "shadow swings" like Pavel recommended in S&S, where you focus on the eccentric.

These are things that work for me, might work for you.

 

[Steve Freides]

@william bad butt, your advice is better than you seem to think it is. A few comments from me:

Dont lift above 85% unless you are doing a Competition phase.

This is going to be highly personal. I've pulled personal bests at competitions where I never went over 88% in training, but this hasn't always worked for me. One of the strengths of PS is that you are regularly exposed to 90% and higher weights without necessarily going through a "peaking" portion of a more traditional program - they become not such a big deal. Again, it's highly individual and, even more than that, what works for any individual may change over time.

Probably controversial... Dont worry too much about the eccentric. Dont be afraid to drop the weights (controlled drop please). Especially if you are training other lifts.

This is perfectly fine.

Maybe controversial... Standup and reset in between each rep, as if you are always doing singles.

Also perfectly fine. In my own training, I have found that both traditional sets and sets of singles have benefit.

Prior to deadlifting, do a few sets of 5 of swings (2 hands on 1 kettlebell) with about 25% to 33% of your body weight. These should be "shadow swings" like Pavel recommended in S&S, where you focus on the eccentric.

Again, this will be highly personal. I am a grinder in my deadlifts, and swings before mess with my groove.

A "this is how it works for me" - I don't like a lot of warmups for my deadlifts, either - I find my form suffers with less than about 65% 1RM on the bar so I don't do any deadlifts at all with less than that much weight.

@jaku, how much deadlifting to do in a program that also includes other powerlifts is also going to be highly personal. When I was squatting in preparation for a 3-lift PL meet, my relatively wide stance, low bar squats provided plenty of what helped my deadlift and I didn't deadlift much. But without heavy, PL style squats in my program, I like to deadlift more, and I'm overall happier squatting as a movement pattern but not with a lot of weight, e.g., I'll do barbell FS or two-kettlebell FS with weights that allow me to go rock bottom, exhale and pause, then inhale to repressurize before coming up. These don't let me use the most weights but, for whatever reasons, they're what make my body stronger without overtraining, so they're how I generally squat.

JMO, YMMV.

-S-

-S-

 

[william bad butt]

Thanks for the reply Steve! Yes, after doing this for 22 years, even I am bound to get some of this right, lol.

This is going to be highly personal. I've pulled personal bests at competitions where I never went over 88% in training, but this hasn't always worked for me. One of the strengths of PS is that you are regularly exposed to 90% and higher weights without necessarily going through a "peaking" portion of a more traditional program - they become not such a big deal. Again, it's highly individual and, even more than that, what works for any individual may change over time

Yes. When programming the deadlift via Plan Strong, I only exceed 85% in the last 4 week prep cycle before a competition cycle. This works for myself because I am flexion intolerant, I don't like to push too hard. I would also do this to others because I can't always watch them lift. I worry about form breakdown at high weights (rounded back, for example).

Again, this will be highly personal. I am a grinder in my deadlifts, and swings before mess with my groove.

I like to minimise warm-up too. I have a couple little things that I do (McGill BIG 3 for example) but it never takes more than 5 minutes. When squatting or benching, the start of the movement is eccentric. I find it easier to "load the spring" of my stretch reflex, and explode upwards in the concentric phase. The deadlift is different. There is no loaded eccentric phase, the lift starts with the concentric, obviously. The shadow swings help me find my hamstrings and aid me in creating a wedge and find a stretch reflex for the deadlift. It doesn't mess up my groove because my swing has a similar groove. This is probably a highly individual thing and what works for me may not work for you.