Old Forum Renegade rows

[Reggie]

Hi all,

I read an article by Dan John about bat wings the other day and was thinking that it seems like a similar movement to a renegade row except with less ROM and less reliance on stability. Because of my shoulder problems I tend to only work with a single kettlebell so I can use my other hand as a spotter, so I would do renegade rows single arm at a time which shortens the ROM. Do you guys think this could be a good exercise to help work the upper back/rear delts to potentially help shoulder problems?

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Kyle

 

[Pavel]

Kyle, the two rows are as different as can be.  The Bw focuses on balancing your body by building typically weak scapular retractors.  The Rr is a hollow position full body tension exercise.

It is extremely difficult to work the retractors with single arm rows.  As your doc what to do.

 

[Jason Ginsberg]

Kyle, are you sure you're thinking of the right skill? I've always understood renegade rows to be done from the pushup position, which would mean you can't use the other hand to spot. It sounds like you're describing the standing one arm row, often done with one hand on the knee for support.

Thank you for that point Pavel, that is good to know. I may need to invest in a bench, just to try out batwings.

 

[Derrick Blanton]

Kyle, "shoulder problems" are wide ranging, and that term opens up a pretty big umbrella of  symptoms and potential correctives.  Are you missing upward rotation, internal rotation, impinging the supraspinatus, the long bicep tendon, etc.  All of which will have different Rx's with some overlap.  And all will necessarily involve T-spine activation and mobility, which will then involve core strength, pelvic control, glutes, etc.

Generally, though I am not sure that I follow the logic of shortening the ROM of  scapular movement, to trump full ROM.  Sure if you want to work on contracted retraction, you could do Blackburns, or just do static holds/shrugs from suspension straps, prone with dumbbells, etc.  This will help you get a preliminary MMC.

But I like the idea of completely protracting the scapula as far as possible, and then retracting to a position of maximal contraction, where it can be held, indefinitely, and then eccentrically released.  This sets the boundaries, so to speak, for your CNS.

But keep in mind, sometimes the shoulder is just the last link in a faulty postural/movement chain.

@Pavel:  One arm row scapula retraction difficulties:  Is this something you have found with experienced trainers as well?  I know that when I do 3-4 sets of Kroc Rows, protracting (stretching), and then pulling violently through the scapula into retraction, that my mid traps and rhomboids experience major DOMS.  I can certainly see how this is a learned and practiced skill, though.

 

[Pavel]

Derrick, "learned and practiced" indeed.  Typical trainees have a hard time registering retraction in one arm rows and they have many great ways to compensate.  Even for an experienced athlete I would recommend two handed rows when the retractors are the main goal.

 

[Reggie]

Thanks for the replies. I probably did not make myself very clear. My comment about using the other hand to spot was just a general comment and about the equipment I have

I mentioned shorening the ROM simply because with bat wings it is mention only to move around 6 inches and you can use less momentum in that way.

@ Derrick - Sorry I posted before about my shoulder problems and did not want to mention it all again so just said that as a reminder I have had two surgeries due to constant dislocations/subluxations and have hypermobility syndrome. My left shoulder has never really healed and have had multiple professionals look at it and not come to a conclusion. I seem to be able to help heal other people except myself from research that I have done it would seem the problem would involve the Serratus, levator scapulae, rhomboids, traps as the pain runs up into my neck and OHP ROM is reduced but ROM is fine when I do TGUs which I have been doing on their own for a good few weeks now again and nothing has changed.

Suspension straps is somthing I have had in my basket for a few weeks and have been considering ordering for bodyweight rows.

@Pavel - thank you for the reply I understand that the Renegade is a full body tension exercise but I have no bench and was trying to find a good way of not cheating rows and getting full retraction(have tried single leg rows and still manage to cheat them lol) and thought you could get the benefits of the bat wing and the stability of the renegade, I am just speculating and probably talking rubbish

Would you suggest biting the bullet and working with 2 bells?

 

Thanks

 

Kyle

 

[Derrick Blanton]

@Pavel: makes sense, thanks.  A coaching cue I use which seems to help sequence and activate the retractors is to visualize yourself as a puppet, and the string runs through the mid back, and connects to the inside of each scapula.  So, pulling force initiates through the scapula first, and only then pulls the arms (lats/bi's.)  Sounds silly, but sometimes something clicks when people view it this way.

@Kyle:  Sounds like you have had a rough go of it!  Sorry about that!

It may be worth getting some suspension straps and setting them up at home where you can just walk up and literally "hang out" on them every day, and regress and progress all manner of scapular movements, just over and over.  Patiently take your time with the straight arm stuff, and then work in the face pulls and rows and upward rotations once you have good MMC through the traps and rhomboids.

Good luck!