Old Forum S&S and Maffetone methods

[Mikes True Potential]

Are there any thoughts on the combining the S&S program with Maffetone's low heart rate?  I love training with kettlebells, but I really want to move the running needle from "I suck" to "mediocre".

I'm a weekend warrior and I'm training for some trail runs and a couple of Spartan races.  Overall, I can handle the obstacles pretty well but I'm a slow runner.  I tend to fade 4-5 miles in.

The general advice is not to lift while building the base for Maffetone, but I like how the KB training keeps me healthy and moving well.  I just can't give it up.  I look at the Maffetone running as easy endurance and I'm treating the S&S as brushing my teeth.  I think consistency in both programs is the key to success.  My heart rate can get pretty high during the swings which is sort of counter to the info I've read on Maffetone and may impact my results, but the 10 reps short duration doesn't feel like a grind like interval training. The get ups are almost perfect for aerobic training for me, slightly higher than my maff HR but not too much, mostly because I am focusing on technique and mastery.

I'm running in the AM 4 times a week (one is longer run on the weekend) and doing S&S 4 times.  This means some two a days, but the low heart rate running is pretty easy to recover from.  Ideally, I'd do both 5 days since I think LHR training  needs 5 hours a week, but life and work get in the way.

I'd be curious about opinions  on combining these two methods.

 

[dmberta]

Mike,

I think having a strength plan to compliment your endurance training is generally best.  Just to kinda explain my history, I had a 3 year love affair with long distance work.  From 2009 to 2012 I completed several marathons a 1/2 Ironman and then an Ironman in 2012.  The training program I had for the Ironman was:

2-3 strength workouts a week(deadlifts plus some calisthenics)

frequent, bried, and easy endurance work during the week(I do have a day job!) with some brief sprints and faster stuff mixed in gradually

1 long Brick(Bike plus Run) each week, ramping distance over a 3 week wave, with the third week pushing the distance up beyond the last wave.  This worked well for the long distances needed for Ironman trianing, but for most middle-ish, you can probably stick to say 3 week of progression, 1 week off, then continue with the progression where it left off for 3 weeks.

So if you have room to expand your longish run upwards on the weekend, I would push the weekday runs up against what time limits apply to you and leave them there.  Then just focus on progressing the long run up to meet your distance goals.  If you want to add some brief sprints to a couple run during the week, do that.  Just don't try to wear yourself out with the sprints, they're more to get the feel of moving fast, than to wear your muscles out.  I prefered to do brief accelerations(progessive ramping of speed to full sprint then back to jog) during my easy runs, but do whatever feels right for you, theres tons options with sprints.

With the S&S prgraming, I jsut wouldn't try to aggresively ramp endurance distance and S&S workload all at the same time.  Hold one or the other relatively constant and jsut keep moving the other up.

 

 

[seward]

I've been trying to do S&S for the last two months while keeping my HR mostly within Maffetone ranges, inspired by some of Dan John's discussion around his 10k swing program.

Like you, I've found that  the TGUs aren't a problem, but the swings are more of a challenge to do at a lower heart rate. For at least the first month, my HR would go well past the top of my desired range at the end of most sets of swings. I wait until it drops down to the bottom of the range (20 below the top) until starting the next set. Depending on the day, this meant that even 5 sets could take 7, 8 or more minutes early on.

Now that it's been a couple of months, I'm seeing big improvements. In the last week, my HR never went outside my target range, and my HR dropped quickly enough that 5 sets took less than 5 minutes. Still a long way to go before I can do 10 sets in 5 minutes, obviously, but I'll stick with it as long as I'm making progress.

 

[Mattsirpeace]

The hinge is the most basic movement, and the swing is the most versatile exercise.  It depends how closely you want to follow S&S.  Pavel gave us an optimal, standardized swing program, but it can be tweaked.  I've had good results going light with swings & goblets when LSD was my priority.

 

[Dan John]

I have always felt that my 'best' coaching is in line with Maffetone's work. When I get away from it...

Steve Ilg, Maffetone, Pavel, Gray and Stu are all these mentors that demand that you think a bit before you apply force. It's not sissy, it's wise.

 

[Michael]

This is about a special ops guy that combines Pavel and Maffetones principals when he trains for ultras

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2011/12/06/the-painless-path-to-endurance-plus-breville-winner-and-more/#more-5874.

 

[haycar]

I have used Maffetone's  principals since early 1990's in my professional triathlon career, and owe much of my success to these principals.  I placed top 10 in many Ironman distance races as well as winning multiple marathons and 50 mile ultra races.  Throughout these years I always strength trained even though Phil told me numerous times it was detrimental.  In my mind, by keeping the reps low and never doing cross fit type barf sessions I was adhering to all the rules, and kept on lifting .  I am a big time over trainer by nature and before I hooked up with Maffetone I was in a constant yoyo of  " If some is good more is better" pattern of racing. Good for a few races then crash and burn, having to take weeks off training to recoup.  With Maffetone's training I always felt recovered.  When I first started the program my max aerobic heart rate running ( 180- age) was about 8:40 per mile pace.  At my peak, this pace fell to about 5:50 -6:00 per mile.    I had a perfect formula year after year as long as I had the patience to stay true to the coarse.  I found that once I built this huge aerobic engine by keeping my heart rate low and becoming efficient, I needed only about 2-3 weeks max of a few anaerobic sessions to become peaked to race. In fact, I became so efficient I had no need for anaerobic sessions when doing ultras or Ironman distance races.  The only time I needed anaerobic work was when I needed to race short and fast.   Trust me, it was hard to go on group rides and fall to the back on climbs to keep on the plan.  Patience and leaving your ego at the door is a must to be successful in this program.

Fast forward 15 years.  I am now a trainer and still use these principals to guide my training.  I do not train for anything in particular, but with the training I do,  I can jump into any endurance event and win my division or at very least be very competitive.  I train some very high level endurance athletes so I must be fit enough to gain their respect while training.  I am 48 now, and at this age it is not that easy to keep up with 22-25 year old world class athletes.  I will give you a sample of my week of training.  (BTW, Pavel 's Strong First Principals rule me on the strength side of the equation). You will see I do not have a day off, but 9 out of 10 weeks I end up taking a day or 2 off due to family or client obligations.

Monday:

AM: 40 min

Lighter GTG get ups : 5 sets or so of 1

Swings/ Hindu squats: 10 sets of 20 with 24kg swings immediately followed by 30 hindu squats.  I will go as fast as I can and keep my Heart rate under 132bpm.

Circuit 2: 3-5 x

One arm push ups ( 2 ish per arm)

Pull ups: 5 :sometimes with weight sometimes not depending how I feel

Pistol squats: 3 per leg just working the pattern .

PM: 10,000 m ski erg at 120 BPM or under ( got this to about 2:05 pace per 500)

 

Tuesday:

AM: Lift with client ( 45 min to 1 hr)

3 rounds of:

1. 1 get up per side with 36ish kbell

2. Farmer walks

3. Hanging leg raise: 8 ish

Circuit 2:

Deadlifts: 5 sets of 2 , or some other lower repo combo.

Kbell push press : 5 ish reps

Renegade or TRX row:

Bike: 30 min of 2 min or under ( down to 20 sec) bike hill sprints all under 132 HR

PM: Run ( 30 min) : Down hill grass sprints: I go to a park  that has a 1 mile hill about 10% grade and run up a half mile , turn around and run down.  Have to go pretty slow on way up , but on way down I can motor close to 5:30 per min mile pace and still keep HR under 132.  Great way to get some leg turnover and teach your nervous system to run fast without trashing yourself .

Wed:  Similar to Monday but Instead of skiing I go swim with my sons swim team in afternoon.  Usually about 3,000 meters ( I wear HR monitor and keep under 132)

Thursday : Similar to Tuesday but Instead of deadlifts I do heavier Zecher squats.  And on run I use the treadmill and do 2 min intervals with 1 min off until my HR gets to 132, then switch to 1 min until I hit 132 then switch to 30 sec.  On 30 sec I can hit over 12.0 miles per hour without going over 132.

Friday:  Similar to Mon and Wed but do snatches instead of swings and do Brick intervals ( about 30 min worth) of 500 meter ski erg followed by 1/4 mile run on treadmill at 132 or below.

Sat: Long trail run of 2hrs ish.

Sun: Long Mountain Bike ride of 2-3 hrs max.

I know this may look like a s*** load of training ( I'm lucky its my job!!) but I never train to failure and always keep my Herat Rate at desired max aerobic rate. I can get away with this volume due to my intensity been on the lower side. My energy almost always good and very rarely get sick.  On a side note, I eat very clean and take care of myself.  Like I said before, if I have a goal race I will simply do a few weeks of anaerobic work and I am peaked and ready to go.  If  you stick to the plan you will be shocked how fast you can get at your max aerobic pace.  Sorry for the self absorbed post, but when I saw this Forum on Maffetone I could not resist!!  Hope this helps you out.

 

 

[Mikes True Potential]

Thanks to all of you for responding.  I would never have thought Maffetone stuff would work, but when I hear Dan John and Pavel and others who I have learned an immense amount from then I take it seriously.  I have a bad habit of overtraining.  Last year I half tried low heart rate running, gave it up for speed work, more lifting, and pushing my distance and pretty much turned myself into hamburger.  I had some decent improvement in the summer, but by fall I was worse than the year before

@David, I like the idea of moving faster because I am sooooo slow and have such a short stride with a low heart rate that I feel like a need to stretch the legs  little.  I'll try that and still keep my HR under the limit.

@ Peter - I definitely won't emulate that program, but I see what you are getting at.  Do you use HRM when lifting?  I think with the sings in S&S, I can't keep my HR that low but with a little longer recovery I can keep it from getting sky high.

Overall, I'm taking the approach of practice and mastery with my lifting and S&S and not killing it.  With the low heart rate running, I think consistency is the way to go. I just don't think I can do it half way and expect results.