Old Forum S&S endurance concept other than KB work?

[Miller531]

I'm asking this out of couriosity to get a better understanding of this topic (endurance):

The basic concept of S&S-style endurance training / conditioning is Maximum Alactacid Power + aerobic recovery [StrongFirst Roadwork blog post]. I see where this is easily achievable by explosive kettlebell lifts like the swing or snatch.

But how would this MAP + recovery concept look like – if applicable – with other methods than KB quick lifts?

I can see that sprints would also be an option (if one chooses the right distance – maybe just below 20 sec of sprinting).

- But what about jump ropes? Not enough intensity to be considered a „Maximum“ alactacid power activity maybe?

- How about Burpees – going all out for no longer than 20 sec, then recover sufficiently and go at it again (I know Pavel „hates“ burpees – used as the typical metcon exercise ;])?

- Using the heavybag as a Martial Artist to do „all-out“ Power punches for up to 20 sec then rest and repeat? Maybe strikes to a heavybag are too localized as an effort to actually build up endurance?

- And isn’t the old concept of Fartlek running (jogging with occasional sprints for a few seconds inbetween) very similiar to the S&S conditioning pattern?

As you can see I’m thinking about four examples and how they would relate to MAP + anaerobic recovery. I think it would be very interesting to get a perspective about those – or similiar – activities in terms of „S&S-style conditioning“.

 

[Al Ciampa]

Miller,

Questions asked and answered by you... to make this protocol work, you need sustained high-power, quick bouts of work, not "breathe heavy" bouts of work.

 

[Miller531]

But what can I take away from this? Only kettlebell quick lifts and interval sprints/runs would work? No BWEs? No other options?

 

[Jeff]

For many of us, this is a major paradigm shift.

 

[Al Ciampa]

Miller,

I think I understand what you're asking... the short answer is, try it; and please, let us know the results.  But if you want to circumvent experimentation, I submit that you (with burpees and jump rope) probably won't be doing enough work in that 20s, and then recovering far too long in the rest interval to elicit the proper adaptations.  You need to greatly accelerate something, like the swing.  If the bell is too heavy, then you're not doing enough work; too light, and again, not enough work.  The former is like trying to throw a shot overhand, the latter is like trying to throw a wiffle ball.  Find your baseball, and let it rip.  Acceleration.

Jeffrey... yes and no.  This has been going on all along: the original PM... on the minute swings... now, S&S... it just wasn't teased out and structured as well.

 

[Jeff]

Al,

Maybe it has been going on for a while, but to be honest I am just now beginning to grasp the concept. You can't go from believing in Rocky Balboa to believing in Pavel all at once, despite the fact that Rocky Balboa is an imaginary person and Pavel is a real person who produces real results.  Somehow, it just seems right to push until you puke if you are serious about getting in shape.

 

[Al Ciampa]

Jeffrey,

This was not true just 20 years ago mainstream, and never true in most professional entities.  So, paradigm shift number 2, in the mainstream.

 

[Miller531]

Thanks Al,

I want to quickly come back to the example of power punching and kicking the heavy bag. Done in 15-20 sec bursts with appropriate rest between sets it should build similar stamina as the swings, shouldn't it? Maybe more specific to the activity, but for a fighter that wouldn't be a problem. And as I strike the bag I would constantly be accelerating (fists, feet, elbows for strikes) something, given that I use all-out power-punches (maybe no heavy weights that are accelerated, but still with maximum power), right?

 

[Al Ciampa]

Miller,

Yes, that protocol might very well work.  But I think in terms of, "tool for the job"... practice the skill of stiking, but train your striking power with the appropriate tool (e.g; swings); and train your endurance and stamina also with the appropriate tool (LSD, swing protocol, sprints, etc).

If I have any issue with your proposed idea, for a superior conditioning effect, its a lack of adjustment, or tuning.  For the swing, the tuning is in the bell size; for sprints, its in the acceleration/velocity; and I wouldn't think that you can get this same effect by throwing harder and harder strikes.  I don't know though.. give it a shot.

 

[Miller531]

Thank you, very eye opening! Maybe I will experiment a little after completeing my current program soon. I feel I'd enjoy a little break from swings, doing something slightly different.