Kettlebell S&S with Quick and the Dead Principles
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james_1127
Level 6 Valued Member
For A+A the weight needs to be heavy
Bauer
Level 8 Valued Member
By the way, here are two comments by Pavel that should clarify some things.
The Quick and the Dead vs Strong Endurance™—What is the Difference? | StrongFirst
Anti-glycolitic training delays or avoids unfavorable conditions that reduce performance. Q&D is one of Strong Endurance's AGT protocols.
www.strongfirst.com
The Quick and the Dead vs Strong Endurance™—What is the Difference? | StrongFirst
Anti-glycolitic training delays or avoids unfavorable conditions that reduce performance. Q&D is one of Strong Endurance's AGT protocols.
www.strongfirst.com
Dayz
Level 8 Valued Member
This is what I was looking for. There's your answer JeffBy the way, here are two comments by Pavel that should clarify some things.
The Quick and the Dead vs Strong Endurance™—What is the Difference? | StrongFirst
Anti-glycolitic training delays or avoids unfavorable conditions that reduce performance. Q&D is one of Strong Endurance's AGT protocols.www.strongfirst.com
The Quick and the Dead vs Strong Endurance™—What is the Difference? | StrongFirst
Anti-glycolitic training delays or avoids unfavorable conditions that reduce performance. Q&D is one of Strong Endurance's AGT protocols.www.strongfirst.com
BCman
Level 6 Valued Member
I sorta follow my own version of S&S - Q&D, inspired from what some others have done on here.
S&S three mornings a week, Swings 10 left 60 sec 10 right 120 sec. 100 reps. Getups every 60 sec.
In the afternoon, three days a week, Power Pushups and a pull (BW Rows or DB curls) Q&D style timing.
I also have an assault Bike that I do 15 second sprints every 90 seconds, for ten rounds, The other three mornings a week.
Al
S&S three mornings a week, Swings 10 left 60 sec 10 right 120 sec. 100 reps. Getups every 60 sec.
In the afternoon, three days a week, Power Pushups and a pull (BW Rows or DB curls) Q&D style timing.
I also have an assault Bike that I do 15 second sprints every 90 seconds, for ten rounds, The other three mornings a week.
Al
PaulGy
Level 3 Valued Member
Please forgive my daft Q but is there a HR we should/could be aiming for to elicit A + A-induced* improvements?
At the moment on swing days (I do my on press/2h swing program) I am doing 10 swings on every 2 minutes (for 30 mins) and my HR hets up to only around 114-132 bpm after each set, is this enough?
* I know my prog may not be an A + A program in a scientific sense, I suppose what I am asking is whether I am working hard enough each set to lea to improvements from the A + A pathways (as well as any minor glycolysis that's going on). I was thinking of swapping 10 reps on every 2 mins for 15 reps on every 3 mins.
At the moment on swing days (I do my on press/2h swing program) I am doing 10 swings on every 2 minutes (for 30 mins) and my HR hets up to only around 114-132 bpm after each set, is this enough?
* I know my prog may not be an A + A program in a scientific sense, I suppose what I am asking is whether I am working hard enough each set to lea to improvements from the A + A pathways (as well as any minor glycolysis that's going on). I was thinking of swapping 10 reps on every 2 mins for 15 reps on every 3 mins.
With A+A you're not really trying for any "high enough" heart rate. You'll see it go up right after the set, and then you'll see it recover during your rest between sets. Yours is probably OK. What weight are you swinging? 1H or 2H swings?
I would not increase to 15 reps with A+A. If anything, I'd go DOWN to 5, 7, 8 reps per repeat. But 10 is basically OK too.
PaulGy
Level 3 Valued Member
Thanks Anna, I am using a 32kg and doing 2h.
My original Q was a bit rubbish, sorry about that. I know that we don't use HR targets to work towards (not least because the improvements we aim for are mitochondrial/muscular, not cardio-respiritorial) and it was a daft way to phrase it.
However, if I can try to rephrase it: what sort of HRs would indicate that I am swinging and eliciting a 'better' or 'more optimal' A + A response?
As a side issue when it starts to feel too easy and a heavier bell is not an option which way is best to go for A + A, more reps or more sets with less rest? I am guessing the latter?
My original Q was a bit rubbish, sorry about that. I know that we don't use HR targets to work towards (not least because the improvements we aim for are mitochondrial/muscular, not cardio-respiritorial) and it was a daft way to phrase it.
However, if I can try to rephrase it: what sort of HRs would indicate that I am swinging and eliciting a 'better' or 'more optimal' A + A response?
As a side issue when it starts to feel too easy and a heavier bell is not an option which way is best to go for A + A, more reps or more sets with less rest? I am guessing the latter?
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The idea of A+A is quick and significant depletion of PCr, then close to complete recovery, repeated many times. So -- "quick" means about 12-15 seconds of work. "Significant" means the work has to be hard. It should be a really big effort to get those 5-7 reps done. I would say a bigger effort than a typical set of 10 swings for S&S. So, how to make it harder? A few options, can use one or more: 1) A bigger range of motion (snatch instead of swing), 2) a heavier weight, 3) be more explosive and powerful. It takes a lot of intensity of effort to do this type of work. If you do any/all of these, you'll see a big HR jump as you finish the set and for several seconds after it. Then, HR will start to come down. Now comes the "close to complete recovery" part. Over the next 60-90 seconds, with some easy movement like fast & loose or walking, your HR will settle to somewhere around 100-110, typically (though less or more is common for some people also, just depends), and you'll feel ready to go again. Your breathing is settled back down, your muscles are fresh, your grip is recovered, etc. Then you do the next hard effort. Then recover.
As you continue this pattern, the HR response should stay pretty even. If you see it trending up over time, you're likely not recovering enough between repeats, or the design of the session isn't quite right (number of reps or weight chosen, how you're doing it, how you're recovering, etc.).
Snatch instead of swing
I joke because that's not what you asked, but really the snatch did become the movement of preference for most A+A programs. That said, I had a lot of success with 1H swings with 32kg doing early A+A protocols. These were almost all sets of 5 swings, switching hands each repeat and resting between each. So within your options, if heavier bell is not an option and you are doing 2H swings with 32kg, I would say try overspeed swings for sets of 10. @Al Ciampa describes them in the "Swings" portion of this article. This would make it a quicker and more intense (PCr-depleting) effort. And/or, just go for more sets (repeats). Some A+A programs are 60 or more repeats in a session, though the average is 20-30 repeats. A typical program has 2 to 4 sessions per week ranging from 15 to 60 repeats, varying.
For A+A, say "no" to compressing the rest, and say "no" to longer sets. Not that these things aren't useful in some contexts, but they're not A+A, because they inherently make the session more glycolytic and that's what A+A seeks to avoid. A+A seeks to use the alactic and aerobic energy systems instead of extensive glycolysis.
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PaulGy
Level 3 Valued Member
Thanks for taking the time to write this very informative reply.
I find the last paragraph particularly illumiating because if you hadn't have said I would have gone for compressed rest periods and relied on a talk test to measure whether I am keeping out of significant glycolysis. But not only is that quite literally guesswork I think it is from poor appreciation of the energy systems and how they work together so that's a homework assignment.
I would snatch as it is probably the KB move I enjoy the most but I think my grip would be the limiting factor. I can C & P the 32 and swing it high at a comfortable effort with 2 h but when I have tried snatching it has been a horror show. I think I fear and possibly know the grip will give out so I sort of end-up traising the bell from the hike position to the floating position with my lower back because I think I am fearful of snapping the hips and powering the bell lest it go flying through my apartment wall (I did that years ago with the 25kg (sic.) that I had back gthen, it went with a bang. :-D
From what you said at the outse about 5-7 reps being a hard effort I am doubtful that I am training in an A + A manner as the 10 swings are quite comfortable. I'll try the overspeeds and ensuring maximal power output (and then more sets) but I am minded to think that I may have to be content with not doing A + A until I get the heavier bell. But I am still having fun! And this is from someone who *hated* swings, I think because I used to push them too hard (with that 25kg bell) back in my ETK days about 15 years ago so I came to dread them. I also used to focus on hitting numbers and not doing *good* swings so my lower back used to play up. Daftness.
Thanks again for all your help and knowledge, I'm indebted.
I find the last paragraph particularly illumiating because if you hadn't have said I would have gone for compressed rest periods and relied on a talk test to measure whether I am keeping out of significant glycolysis. But not only is that quite literally guesswork I think it is from poor appreciation of the energy systems and how they work together so that's a homework assignment.
I would snatch as it is probably the KB move I enjoy the most but I think my grip would be the limiting factor. I can C & P the 32 and swing it high at a comfortable effort with 2 h but when I have tried snatching it has been a horror show. I think I fear and possibly know the grip will give out so I sort of end-up traising the bell from the hike position to the floating position with my lower back because I think I am fearful of snapping the hips and powering the bell lest it go flying through my apartment wall (I did that years ago with the 25kg (sic.) that I had back gthen, it went with a bang. :-D
From what you said at the outse about 5-7 reps being a hard effort I am doubtful that I am training in an A + A manner as the 10 swings are quite comfortable. I'll try the overspeeds and ensuring maximal power output (and then more sets) but I am minded to think that I may have to be content with not doing A + A until I get the heavier bell. But I am still having fun! And this is from someone who *hated* swings, I think because I used to push them too hard (with that 25kg bell) back in my ETK days about 15 years ago so I came to dread them. I also used to focus on hitting numbers and not doing *good* swings so my lower back used to play up. Daftness.
Thanks again for all your help and knowledge, I'm indebted.
Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
I can swing the 48kg, I can clean and press the 40kg, and I can snatch the 32kg.
But I will say, I have always felt lucky that I did most of my snatching outdoors. There are plenty of divots in the dirt outside from 32kg snatches. Some days,every once in a while, it got away from me.
My regular snatch practice is still with the 24kg bell for that reason.
mikhael
Level 9 Valued Member
I do Tactical Getups with 40kg bell. I noticed that when two reps are done one after another, which took about 20 second, my HR goes up to 160, than after about 60 second it went down below 100 bpm. Would it be considered as A+A-style session?
Stay Strong. Stay Hard. Get After It.
Bauer
Level 8 Valued Member
Depending on where you want to go with it, here are more options:
- Going above 10 reps into glycolytic power repeats (HIRT), not A+A, but based on AGT principles.
- Going below 10 reps and even below 5 reps for endurance
The second option is best exemplified by Megan Kelly (former world record holder for most 2H Swings tonnage during an hour).
She does very long sessions, working on her StrongEndurance, directly coached by Pavel. I once asked her how to transition into that.
She advised me to take a 10x10 weight and then
try sets of 5-6 OTM for up to 20 minutes, then
sets of 3 every 30 seconds up to 20 minutes.
(Stop when failing the talk test, or when your form or breathing changes without your voluntary control.)
By that time you might probably start again with one-handed swings, go for longer sessions (first up to 40, later up to 60 minutes), or go for 4-5 reps every 30 seconds. Megan Kelly uses 2H swings. Here is an example:
Btw, a similar approach is used the in SF-KB course on BJJ fanatics.
Get-ups and other "grinds" (slow lifts) generally aren't considered A+A, because A+A is some form of power repeat, which really targets alactic (PCr) and aerobic energy usage/production. Heart rate increases are driven by many things -- fuel usage, hormones (adrenaline), postural changes... so there's other stuff going on there with get-ups. But all 3 energy "systems" (alactic/PCr, gylcolysis, aerobic) are always in use no matter what you're doing... so I don't think it's all that much different, TBH. I think you're getting similar benefits! But I wouldn't call it A+A.
PaulGy
Level 3 Valued Member
I know your pain! I 'only' launched the 25kg on two occasions, one hit my liunge door and put a crack in it, the other hit the wall. It's not a brick wall, it's a hollow and flimsy type construction so there was a KB hole in it for ages!
PaulGy
Level 3 Valued Member
Some interesting ideas, thanks. On Friday I did sets of 12 just to see how it felt - and I noticed quite a difference in breathing/exertion/fatigue and form went south a bit too so not ideal. I was surprised I thought that even though the vilime increase was 20% the effect would be negligible. I like the sound of your suggestion, it's a swing day tomorrow so I'll try 5 OTM see how that feels
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