Old Forum Training the alactic system.

[Dave0317]

So I have read the Strongfirst Roadwork blog post and I love the explanation of the energy systems.  My question is this: how much can you improve the alactic system?  Does 10-30 seconds mean that a deconditioned athlete has about 10 seconds to use it and a high level athlete may be able to stay in the alactic system for the full 30 seconds?  I do know they overlap each other also.

Could a lifter go from repeating a 95% effort with two minutes rest to replenishing his ATP faster (or having a bigger store) and repeat the same 95% effort twice in a minute once he has trained the alactic system more?  Could he train it to last 45 seconds?

Thanks for any insight anyone can chime in with.

 

[Dan John]

I don't know the science, honestly, but an idea that has been around a long time ("Rest-Pause" or Alactic Training) is to do a rep, rest five seconds, do a rep, rest tfive seconds...

I would try this with something as simple as maybe Standing Long Jumps or Vertical Jumps first. No load, but measurable. Let's say you jump 9 feet on the first rep. Rest five seconds. On the second, you might improve and that could happen on the third, too. Get a sense when the distance degrades noticeably. Let's just say seven.

This would be your baseline for experimenting with the rest of the body. As you can see, you have to play on the edges here of performance and bad reps could end badly.

Arthur Jones, Mike Metzger and Art DeVaney have all commented on this. I was looking for the old workouts on this, but I can't find them. Back when Tamir Katz, Robb Wolf and I used to talk about all of this, Art put up a great weekly workout with this built in.

It might work better with machines for pushing and pulling, but with KBs or barbells be smart.

The idea would be that, over time, your drop off (Jump height or length; solid reps) wouldn't happen until higher sets. It's an interesting way to train, but I think you have to invest a lot of time to benefit from it. It would take a lot of experimenting and dialing it in ...which is why I mentioned machines. As for your example, I have nothing.

I enjoy the thought process, but you had better sit down and do the cost to benefit ratio.

 

 

 

[Mikeperry]

I have been diving into energy system work lately and here are some thoughts:

Are you trying to improve alactic power or alactic capacity?

Alactic power would be high intensity/high output for :10 or less, recovery would be anywhere from 2-5 minutes or so. With such a high output, you would need time to replenish ATP levels so you can repeat the same exertion level/performance.

Alactic capacity would be working up to :15 or so but with incomplete recovery, lets say 2 minutes or less.

 

I don't think too many people can repeat a 95% effort with just 2 minutes of rest, if they can, it won't be for many sets

Both are good

If you want to go all out up to :45 you go into glycolitic training.

The glycolytic system provides energy ( ATP) for roughly :20 to :50.  Your body breaks down blood sugar or stored sugar to provide this energy.

hope this helps!

 

[RyanH]

Of the 3 energy systems (alactic, lactic, aerobic) alactic has the least potential for improvement (but it can be improved), lactic more so and aerobic the most. I good book on this and methods to increase them is Joel Jamieson's "Ultimate MMA conditioning". It is much more than just MMA training. He also has a lot of stuff floating on the web including his website. Here's a lecture he gave on the energy systems from his website:  http://www.8weeksout.com/2011/05/24/a-new-perspective-on-energy-systems-video/

 

[TLewis]

My main sport is cycling which relies heavily on lactic and aerobic systems, but some of what I do is to train the alactic or creatine phosphate systems. The workout will be a slowing ride which keeps the HR low and then I'll do a big-gear sprint for about 8-10 seconds with a target peak output of >1000 watts. If the ride lasts for an hour, I might do 10-12 of these sprints.

What I seem to get out of these is more 'snap' in my acceleration and the ability to respond to repeated pack surges. It's a good tool to have in the box.

 

[Pavel]

David, Mike has brought up an important distinction of power vs. capacity.  Training both is a very broad topic and a controversial one.

In a nutshell, the S&S protocol was designed to train (although not maximize) both by progressing from 1:5-6 to 1:1 work to rest ratio.  Most people can sustain a high power alactacid effort for 10-15sec (hence sets of 10 swings); trained longer distance sprinters up to 30sec.  I will write about this topic in more detail in the future.

Note that when powerlifters or weightlifters who use rest-pause or clusters, they are not necessarily training the alactacid power or capacity.  Other reasons include technique practice with nearmax weights and hypertrophy of the highest threshold MUs.

 

[TLewis]

I was thinking about this a bit more. If we start off S&S with long rests, then I can see the alactic fuel path. Once we're talking about 1:2 or 1:1 work: rest ratios, though, we have to be hitting more of an anaerobic pathway. We're almost talking about Tabata work. How does that change things?

 

[Pavel]

Tim, you need to read up on biochemistry before asking questions of this kind.  I suggest the textbook co-authored by Prof. Fahey.

 

[Dave0317]

Thanks for all the input guys.

Even though the "how" may not matter, it can sure be helpful in knowing how much to work certain intervals.

Like in the SF Roadwork blog post, the alactic system does seem to be the  best way to win a fight.  Being able to throw several punches of maximal power, rest a minimal amount and throw more just as hard would be great skill to have.  Though it seems  there is not a lot of room for improvement with this ability.

Dan John, I really like the standing long jump idea. I think I will try that.  I wish I had that measurement before I started S&S to see if it has already improved.

Mike, in the power vs capacity argument, maybe I am wrong, but the power should increase in direct proportion to your 1RM.  Just my own theory based on my limited understanding of this stuff.  So I would argue the real value in this type of training would be the capacity to repeat that maximal effort sooner.

Pavel, thank you and I can't wait to read more about it.

I need to stop thinking of all this stuff and just get back to swinging my kettlebell for now.  In short intervals with lots of rest of course! Haha.

 

 

[TLewis]

Book ordered. I hope we can reopen this discussion after I've had some time to digest it.

 

[Mikeperry]

Lots of stuff to cover here. It depends on your goals, IMHO- it makes sense to attack alactic power before capacity, its like getting baseline strong before training the o-lifts.

I utilize both when I train fighters. They need power work at the beginning of their programming and as we get closer to a fight, we branch over to capacity work.