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Old Forum Using kettlebell for Power or conditioning

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dobie

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Question-Become strong first is a great concept and "words to live by".  The set of 10 Philosophy for speed and power in the swing movement makes perfect sense.  However, when training for conditioning with the Kettlebell and moving into higher rep swing ranges your speed and power will suffer at some point-this would be considered training your body to move slower, would it not?  Would  a better approach be to use kettlebells for speeed, power and strength only-along the line of the strongfirst philosophy and run sprints for conditioning?  Nothing beats an all out 10-15 second sprint for conditioning IMO.
 
Andy,

Conditioning meaning aerobic and anaerobic.  I know a kettlebell can do both of these, however, like I mentioned in 1st post, once you get over 10 reps swinging your power output will start to go down.
 
I'm personally not a huge fan of using all out sprints for conditioning. Most research has shown that after a few weeks the aerobic benefits drop off. You're going to run into the same problems you thought about with the swings, as you get tired power will drop off. If you want to do sprints for aerobic conditioning a better protocol would be something like 6x200m with 1:3 work:recovery.

That's going to give you a more running specific adaptation. If you're just seeking a less specific kind of endurance you'll be fine with a General Physical Preparedness program like Simple and Sinister. It dodges the issue of higher rep swings by keeping the reps at 10, so as you increase fitness you're doing the same work in less time.

If you have access to a prowler I know nothing better at giving you the "breathing through a straw" feeling.

What you decide on is going to depend a lot on your goals and what you have access to.
 
Andy,

Thanks,  Yes, I agree that power will drop off with anything one would do from sprints, 200's, Swings, prowler.  It seems as though there could be a point of diminishing returns with sets of 10 swings.  I find that when I do 10 sets of 10 hardstyle, resting about 30-45 seconds between each set with a 70 pound bell that at the end I'm really not that tired.  If I cut down my rest time then my power will suffer, I f I do significantly more sets, again one's power will probably suffer.  Thoughts?
 
Try workouts of both? Some days focus on the power output and get plenty of rest. Other days crank up the heart rate with more volume or less rest. One tool, many uses.
 
Brian, your question is very wide and would require a book to answer.  To keep it short: you can have it both with the S&S protocol.
 
Pavel,

Thanks for the response.  I will look into the SS protocol seriously.

Brian
 
Brian, I had a similar thread not quite a year ago:

http://www.strongfirst.com/topic/mel-siff-on-pha/

No particular resolution -- just that swings should be divided into "power" and "endurance" and not in between.  Still waiting for my copy of S & S, but I like seeing swings being distinctly strength.  After all, you can always run for LSD or intervals.

Athletic greatness already didn't happen for me, so I'm relieved of the burden of getting the programming exactly right.  Besides, I have mixed strength/endurance goals.  As long as I get better at hip-hinging, I'm doing myself a huge favor.  A git'er-done cardio quickie is 200 continuous swings with a 16 kg in six minutes.  I also plan on repeating at least a 405 sumo deadlift every year.  In between would be 40-48 kg swings or aggressive double cleans with 32s.

Ditto Andy -- sled pushing is both awful and safe.
 
P.S.

I also love combining light swings and goblets with barefoot nosebreathing jogging.  A perfect combo of LSD, hip mobility, and Amosov squats.
 
"Athletic greatness already didn’t happen for me, so I’m relieved of the burden of getting the programming exactly right.  "

 

This could be the most excellent point on any internet fitness forum ever. This is us. If it wasn't we would have our coach telling us what to do not looking for 500 diffrent answers and making a 10-answers-I-liked-the-most-hybrid.
 
TGU for 10 min. Then personally I use the green jump stretch band with a 24kg swings at 1/2x  a week for 3-5 sets of 10 with 3-5 minutes rest between = power or I use beast swings. I rotate each time.
 
Some very interesting reading in this thread! 

Here's a kettlebell workout I did (for six weeks) two years ago when I was dieting down for a grip contest.  It netted me a 451lb one-hand short range deadlift on a Plateau Buster Swing Handle at about 200lbs bodyweight.  I did other grip-specific training at that time, of course.  But I was looking over my trove of training notebooks that I "re-found" the other day while reorganizing the house, and found that this particular kettlebell workout has been partly responsible - twice - for some serious one-hand short range deadlift results for me.  Last year I did a 567lb one-hand short range deadlift on a Plateau Buster Swing Handle (modular version that time, slicker handle) at around 220lbs bodyweight. 

It is obvious to me that I should've revisited this particular workout many times since then.  But various factors and goals got in the way.  But I will list it here in case anyone is interested in giving it a try.  I have not shared it before now.  And of course, there is nothing new under the sun.  The "dead-stop" reps are Mark Reifkind's invention, I think.  Or at least that is where I became introduced to them, from his excellent blog.  I didn't list them in my training blog because I honestly didn't think they would have much, or any, positive carryover to my contest.  I just did them to make up for losing a substantial amount of bodyweight and wanted to tighten up my abs a bit for the wife, lol. 
3 DAYS PER WEEK
WEEK 1:
Day 1: Use 16kg kettlebell.  20 minute time limit.  Do as many 2-hand swings as possible in the 20 minutes.  Per Pavel's recommendation, never go to failure.  But go pretty close at times.  Rest as needed.  Keep a tally of how many reps you do, and then write it down.  Which you should be doing for every workout anyway. 

Day 2: Use 20kg kettlebell.  10 minute time limit.  Do as many 2-hand swings as possible in the 10 minutes.  Same as above regarding not going to failure. 

Day 3: Use 28kg kettlebell.  5 minute time limit.  Do 2-hand swing "Dead-Stop" singles.  Just re-set after each explosive rep.  Rest a beat or two.  Then do another explosive rep.  Really focus on being explosive.  Look this up on Mark Reifkind's blog.  Basically, do an explosive rep.  Then set the bell down.  Then get set for another and do another explosive rep.  Continue until the 5 minutes is up.  I usually did an explosive rep followed by 3 moderately deep breaths, before doing another explosive rep.    

Rest about 5 minutes and then, using the same 28kg kettlebell and 5 minute time limit, do what I called "Dead-Stop Pause Goblet Jump Squats."  They are simply explosive paused goblet jump squat singles, followed by a short re-set.  I picked up the bell and then got into goblet squat position.  Then explosively (but controlled) shot down to the bottom of the squat.  Paused for a second in the bottom position of the squat.  Then tried to rocket out of the bottom position so fast that I would hit my head on the ceiling.  Once my feet touched the ground again, I set the bell on the ground and took 3 moderately deep breaths.  Then did another explosive single and repeated the 3 moderately deep breaths with doing singles until the 5 minutes was up.  Well, hitting my head on the ceiling never happened, lol.  But I do think they helped my power output quite a bit during that short time I did them.  I have never had knee problems, and to be honest, these would probably hurt most people's knees, so I never recommended them.  And I'm not necessarily saying people should do them now.  But it was part of what I did, so here they are.

I never felt the need to go heavier than 28kg on anything listed here.  Like I said before, I intended these workouts to be a supplement to the specific training I was doing.  But the more I look back on it, the more I think they were responsible for a significant increase in my athletic ability during that time. 

WEEK 2

I did the same workout for Day 1 as the first week.  Just focused on getting more reps. 

The Day 2 workout saw the addition of a 10 minute block of Double Front Squats.  I don't have doubles, so I used a 16kg and 20kg.  And switched hands every set until the 10 minutes was up.  Took note of the total number of reps and tried to beat that the next time I repeated the workout with the same weight. 

Day 3 I did the same 5 minutes of "Dead-Stop" 2-hand swings.  But instead of the Dead-Stop Pause Goblet Jump Squats, I substituted Double Front Squats with 16kg and 20kg.  Done with a pause at the bottom position of the squat and a jump after exploding out of the hole.  Then a re-set of the bells on the ground to take 3 moderately deep breaths, before repeating the process until the 5 minutes was up. 

WEEK 3

I did the same workout for Day 1 as the second week.  And again, focused on getting more reps in the 20 minutes. 

For the Day 2 workout, I kept the 10 minute block of Double Front Squats, but increased the weight to 24kg and 28kg.  And kept track of the total number of reps, with the goal of increasing that in the next workout with the same weight.

Switched things up on this Day 3 by doing 5 minutes of "Dead-Stop" Double Swings.  Used a 16kg and 20kg and alternated hands each set.  After a 5 minute rest, I did Dead-Stop Pause Goblet Jump Squats with 28kg.  Same 5 minute time limit as the other weeks.

WEEK 4

Same workout as Day 1 on the third week.  But, I increased the weight to the 20kg kettlebell.  Kept track of the reps, as usual. 

Day 2 workout, I kept the 10 minute block of Double Front Squats, but went back to the 16kg and 20kg bells.  Focused on getting more reps than I did in the other workout with this weight.

Day 3 I kept the 5 minutes of "Dead-Stop" Double Swings, but increased the weight to 20kg and 24kg.  And alternated hands each set.  After a 5 minute rest, I did Dead-Stop Pause Double Front Jump Squats with 20kg and 24kg.  Same 5 minute time limit as the other weeks. 

WEEK 5

Same workout as Day 1 on the 4th week.  But, I increased the weight to the 24kg kettlebell.  Kept track of the reps.  They were going down, as expected. 

Day 2 workout, I kept the 10 minute block of Double Front Squats, but alternated to the 24kg and 28kg bells.  Focused on getting more reps than in the Day 2 workout of Week 3. 

Day 3 I kept the 5 minutes of "Dead-Stop" Double Swings, but increased the weight again to 24kg and 28kg.  Alternated hands each set.  After a 5 minute rest, I did Dead-Stop Pause Goblet Jump Squats with 28kg.  Same 5 minute time limit as the other weeks. 

WEEK 6

Same workout as Day 1 on the 5th week.  But, as you probably guessed, I increased the weight to the 28kg kettlebell. 

Day 2 workout, I was able to train with a friend who had double 32kg bells.  So I did a 10 minute block of that and then we did some grip-specific work. 

Day 3 I did "Dead-Stop" Double Swings with 24kg and 28kg for a 20 minute block.  Around this time (in 2011) I was getting very close to 200lbs and occasionally would drop a hair under - depending on which scale I was using that day.
 
The prowler is a great tool, since I am new to KB  I would appreciate any thoughts on  programming with a prowler and KB 's.
 
Pavel, it's hard to pinpoint the results I saw just because I was doing other grip-specific training at the time.  I'm referring to the time two years ago when I was dropping weight, because I did the listed program for 6 weeks.  The main thing I noticed was my ability to move faster.  In every task.  And every deadlift felt much lighter than the actual weight on the bar.  My muscles also felt extremely condensed.  Hard to describe, but anyone who has had that feeling knows exactly what I'm talking about.  They (muscles) were hard to the touch.  More so than they've ever been before or since.  People were remarking about it any time they happened to touch my shoulders especially.  I remember that my forearm flexors felt like baseball bats. 

This might not be as exact as what you were looking for when you asked the question.  But it's one of those things that might be hard to explain, but is always going to be very memorable to me no matter how much time passes. 

 
 
Pavel,

This is what comes to mind when you ask about simplifying for the readers:

Go to 2 days per week, instead of 3 days per week.
Drop the goblet squat from the program.  Stick to the double front squat.
Use the "Day 1" and "Day 2" from week 2. 
Alternate between heavy and light on workout to workout.  For example, Week 1 - Day 1 workout could be 2-hand swings for 20 minutes with the 16kg bell.  Then, Week 2 - Day 1 workout you could switch to the heaviest bell you have for the 20 minutes of 2-hand swings.  Do the same thing for the double front squat.  Week 1 - Day 2 workout could be double front squat with 16kg and 20kg bells.  Week 2 - Day 2 workout could be double front squat with 24kg and 28kg bells.  Same time limits.  You will obviously get less reps though. 
 
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