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Barbell How we get stronger

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bigwood177

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Good programming + consistent effort = increased strength?

As we lift our muscle fibers get stronger and our neural system gets more skilled at controlling the muscle fibers, right? Now I'm not so sure.

I know that some of you on this forum have spent most of you lives studying the way our bodies (and minds) change as a result of lifting weights - please give my your insight to the following.

I've been lifting off and on for over 40 years - mostly with the goal of being able to lift heavier weights tomorrow.

I started dead-lifting about 6 months ago and my results have me questioning how we get stronger.

But first, consider these two anecdotes:

1. I was at the end of a 3 month bench press progression and had just matched my old PR of 215 and was trying to set a new PR of 220. Monday after warming up I put 220 on the bar and couldn't even get it off the rack. Wednesday - same result. Friday 220 went up easy - too easy I thought - I must have loaded the bar wrong. Turned out I that instead of 220 I had 230! Somehow I ended up with and extra 10 lb plate on the left side (my weaker arm) of the bar.

2. My friend Mark told me of a similar incident he was involved in. Mark, and experienced power lifter was training with two other guys, Ray and Bill. Bill had been trying to make a PR of 450 for a long time but always seemed stall out at 430. For Bill's last warm-up set Mark and Ray loaded the bar with 460 instead of 430 and Bill made the lift. As Bill was getting ready for his PR lift Mark says "look at the bar", Bill adds up the weight and goes "You a@@holes ... thanks.

So what's going on here? What explains the difference between our absolute strength and the amount of strength we are able to demonstrate and any given time?

Before you answer, here's my dead-lifting experience that got me thinking about all of this in the first place.

Until last December I'd never dead-lifted before. I didn't have access to a coach and was convinced I'd destroy my back. But after reading about all the benefits of dead-lifting (I own PTP) I was keen to give it a try. I came across a link to Rippetoe's Starting Strength You-Tube videos (maybe on this forum) and after watching the dead lift series w/ my son I decided to give it a try.

Let's go to the gym I said - you watch and see if what I'm doing looks like the video instructions. I started w/ 135 lbs followed Rip's ques, it felt comfortable. I decided to lift 3 days a week - not much volume, just trying to get comfortable with the movement. I wanted to start on a tried and true program after establishing a ball park 1-rep max. So each Sunday I tried for a new PR. After my first week I lifted 195 (probably could have done more but was still a bit tentative).
Week 2: 245.
Week 3: 275.
Week 4: 285.
Week 5: failed to lift 295.
Having established my 1-rep max of 295 I started the Wendler 5-3-1 program. I did three 4-week cycles and tried a new PR. I was able to lift 275 lbs. I just finished the 8th week of a routine that Pavel wrote for his Dad (see 4-hour ... Unrealistic Goals..) and decided to try for a new PR - 275 again. This is after 20 weeks of training.

Since I'd never dead-lifted befor I was expecting all kinds of newbie gains.

Now it seems to me that I was a my max strenght pretty much from day 1 as I spent the first 3 or 4 weeks getting comfortable with the lift rather than "training".

What do you guys think?
 
@bigwood177, welcome to StrongFirst.

Strength is a skill - one doesn't execute a skill at exactly the same level every day - some days are better than others, and that's just life. I'll bet you that, if you attend our 1-day Barbell course, you'll go home and set a new deadlift PR - the course will help you improve your skill.
bigwood177 said:
Mark, and experienced power lifter was training with two other guys, Ray and Bill. Bill had been trying to make a PR of 450 for a long time but always seemed stall out at 430. For Bill's last warm-up set Mark and Ray loaded the bar with 460 instead of 430 and Bill made the lift. As Bill was getting ready for his PR lift Mark says "look at the bar", Bill adds up the weight and goes "You a@@holes ... thanks.

So what's going on here? What explains the difference between our absolute strength and the amount of strength we are able to demonstrate and any given time?
Click to expand...
It sounds like the lifter may have been psyching himself out of a heavier lift and gotten it only when he was more relaxed. Our minds are a big part of our lifting skill, and that extends to things other than just what muscles to activate when, as your story demonstrates.

-S-
 
Nature and Biology do not fit into our mathematical language however much we would like to force it to. Mathematics is a form of pattern recognition that has now extrapolate into an abstract art is in its own right. I feel that we can capture a lot of our world through mathematics, but in the largest perspective on a universal level, it all only works in our time and place.

To your wonderings...

BLUF: we really do not know "how".

The body is biological, and so does not have to adhere to our expectations. The complex physiological orchestra that leads to the ability to produce more force against the physical world is much more than simple muscle and nervous tissue adaptations. We understand the pattern involved with strength improvements, but mostly from a anecdotal perspective, with academia poorly following behind. Did you know that the muscular system of your body is already capable of enough force production to break the very bones they support and move? I've never read any science detailing how to remove the governor from whatever is limiting your true, albeit bone-disabling, strength.

So, get some personal instruction on how to posture and move your specific vehicle. "Practice" moving your vehicle often. Practice placing your vehicle against heavier loads, sometimes. Participate in strength programs that are known to have high success rates. Enjoy the trend of getting stronger over time, not session to session.

This is the pattern that we have recognized. And as Steve likes to say, "YMMV".

A question back to you: why have you never DL'd in the 40 years that you have been strength training? What have you been doing?
 
Thanks for the reply guys!
Like everyone, I've had days when I've felt lousy and hit a PR and days when I've felt great and had a hard time lifting anything. But this dead-lifting episode has really got me wondering what's going on. I essentially lifted my heaviest weight right away and then spent 20 weeks not getting any stronger. What kind of adaptation was taking place? I probably could have done 285 on my 2nd week but was extremely conservative at the beginning.

The history of science has shown that often it's in trying to account for the anomalies that new models that better explain the world are developed. That's the reason I took the time to post. Maybe you guys who have the background and experience will say: "your experience is not really an anomaly - that kind of stuff happens to everyone"

" The complex physiological orchestra that leads to the ability to produce more force against the physical world is much more than simple muscle and nervous tissue adaptations."

You slobbered a mouthful there, brother. I was thinking my experience might be one more datum that leads to a better explanation of how things work.

As to why I never DL'd in the past - I was terrified of getting hurt.

Wood
 
no better way to get hurt than being weak...avoiding deadlifts is one of the surest ways to a weak back. Maybe there was a regression or lack of progress from residual, deep-seated fear? Probably best to get a good (SF) coach and make sure the form is good, etc.
 
@bigwood177,
+1 to what others have said: progress is not necessarily linear and predictable, possible psychological roadblock, possible form issues emerging with heavier weights putting a ceiling on progress, etc.

From your initial post is seems like you have been lifting near your max (weight and/or effort) on a fairly regular basis for 20 weeks. The DL is very CNS intensive and can be very punishing of lifting like this, especially if you are a newcomer to the lift. Any DL PR, especially if it truly is a max effort, generally requires a back off afterward. Failed lifts can be taxing on the CNS in terms of recovery, reinforcing an inhibitory reflex (especially in beginners) and concious and subconscious confidence.

IMO, your experience almost seems more predictable than anomalous.
 
bigwood177 said:
Good programming + consistent effort = increased strength?

As we lift our muscle fibers get stronger and our neural system gets more skilled at controlling the muscle fibers, right? Now I'm not so sure.

I know that some of you on this forum have spent most of you lives studying the way our bodies (and minds) change as a result of lifting weights - please give my your insight to the following.

I've been lifting off and on for over 40 years - mostly with the goal of being able to lift heavier weights tomorrow.

I started dead-lifting about 6 months ago and my results have me questioning how we get stronger.

But first, consider these two anecdotes:

1. I was at the end of a 3 month bench press progression and had just matched my old PR of 215 and was trying to set a new PR of 220. Monday after warming up I put 220 on the bar and couldn't even get it off the rack. Wednesday - same result. Friday 220 went up easy - too easy I thought - I must have loaded the bar wrong. Turned out I that instead of 220 I had 230! Somehow I ended up with and extra 10 lb plate on the left side (my weaker arm) of the bar.

2. My friend Mark told me of a similar incident he was involved in. Mark, and experienced power lifter was training with two other guys, Ray and Bill. Bill had been trying to make a PR of 450 for a long time but always seemed stall out at 430. For Bill's last warm-up set Mark and Ray loaded the bar with 460 instead of 430 and Bill made the lift. As Bill was getting ready for his PR lift Mark says "look at the bar", Bill adds up the weight and goes "You a@@holes ... thanks.

So what's going on here? What explains the difference between our absolute strength and the amount of strength we are able to demonstrate and any given time?

Before you answer, here's my dead-lifting experience that got me thinking about all of this in the first place.

Until last December I'd never dead-lifted before. I didn't have access to a coach and was convinced I'd destroy my back. But after reading about all the benefits of dead-lifting (I own PTP) I was keen to give it a try. I came across a link to Rippetoe's Starting Strength You-Tube videos (maybe on this forum) and after watching the dead lift series w/ my son I decided to give it a try.

Let's go to the gym I said - you watch and see if what I'm doing looks like the video instructions. I started w/ 135 lbs followed Rip's ques, it felt comfortable. I decided to lift 3 days a week - not much volume, just trying to get comfortable with the movement. I wanted to start on a tried and true program after establishing a ball park 1-rep max. So each Sunday I tried for a new PR. After my first week I lifted 195 (probably could have done more but was still a bit tentative).
Week 2: 245.
Week 3: 275.
Week 4: 285.
Week 5: failed to lift 295.
Having established my 1-rep max of 295 I started the Wendler 5-3-1 program. I did three 4-week cycles and tried a new PR. I was able to lift 275 lbs. I just finished the 8th week of a routine that Pavel wrote for his Dad (see 4-hour ... Unrealistic Goals..) and decided to try for a new PR - 275 again. This is after 20 weeks of training.

Since I'd never dead-lifted befor I was expecting all kinds of newbie gains.

Now it seems to me that I was a my max strenght pretty much from day 1 as I spent the first 3 or 4 weeks getting comfortable with the lift rather than "training".

What do you guys think?
Click to expand...

The American weightlifter Tommy Kono wrote extensively about the importance of the mind when lifting weights. When the lifter is not ready in his mind he won't be able to lift it. Lifting heavy weights over a long time can tire the mind and the lifter won't be eager to lift heavily. Therefore Kono preferred to do some bodybuilding after a competition. Lighter weights, higher reps, no mental stress.


Now it is difficult to judge why a cycle didn't work out. Age, eating, resting, form, previous experience, tendon and ligament strength - all play a role.
I'd suggest to lift with some more experienced lifter in regards to deadlifts and bench presses. Let them assess your form. And by watching others lift much bigger weights than you believe possible for yourself, your mind will alter. Limits will shift and PRs will be broken.
 
Thanks, taedoju for a very thorough and interesting explanation of GAS (it took me a long time to get through it!).


But, still, I'm left wondering what really happens when we train.
Sometimes it I think that when you start a new cycle at low poundage your body adopts by acting weaker and you don't gradually get stronger but regain your confidence to lift heavier weights, eventually expecting that you will set a new PR.

As for the actual physical adoptation, my musculature seems to be more a function of how much I weigh than how much I train.
For example, I have small calves. Varied continous training over a period of years has not made them bigger. What kind of physiological adaption has been taking place?

To take a different perspective to my original observation, suppose I told you I had just started dead-lifting for the first time and after a few weeks of trial and error had established an approximate PR of 285. I'm 6'2" tall and weigh 225 lbs and am willing to train between 2-4 times/week. What would you say would be a reasonable 12 week goal?

After all the theory, data collection and analysis I think the last quote best matches my current thinking:

The mind, once expanded to the dimensions of larger ideas,
Never returns to its original size.
 
For me, GAS has always been the acronym for Guitar Acquisition Syndrome. It refers to people who more high quality guitars than they could possibly need.

-S-
 
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