Can pure strength training make hypertrophy more difficult or even impossible?

[Zwuckel]

I wondered if do only strength blocks for a few years with let´s say low calories do I make it harder or maybe even impossible to gain muscle mass?

For example I´ll do the Strong! strength block back on back on back for a few years. Now I´m incredibly strong and can C&P 40k +. I still look skinny because I haven´t eaten much.

As far as my understanding goes for hypertrophy I have to increase reps and maybe decrease pause times. Because of my strength I start out with the 32k maybe. From there on I assume it will be incredibly difficult to increase the weight because it it already so heavy and more taxing compared to 20k. Therefore making muscle gains very difficult or maybe even impossible.

I have the feeling I´m missing something. Can someone explain?

Foot note: I read the newsletter from Tuesday. I mean sarcoplasma and glycogen. It was the first time I heard about increase in contractile protein. So that may fall under different rules?

 

[jozko]

Single or double bell C&P?

I spent years on single bell protocols, but did not grow much. Double KB work was a game changer for me, even without change in my diet. Of course, eating more means growing even more. My BW went from 83kg to 87kg in 3 months. Not much, but I was not training specifically for volume.

Combine it with the knowledge from the newsletter and accumulate volume by doing many sets of 3-6 reps.

But if you absolutely badly want to grow, grab barbell. Go Bill Starr, Dough Hepburn method or Boring but big.

 

[Dydo]

Even if you're not eating in a deficit, if you train primarily for strength with low reps and higher weights, hypertrophy is more difficult than with moderate weights and higher volume training. It is no accident that many programs contain hypertrophy cycles because strength cycles do not produce sufficient muscle growth. And that's assuming you're eating at least a little excess.
If you are overweight and a beginner you will gain muscle as well as train even if you are eating in a deficit as this is a stress on the muscles that has not been applied to this point.
In my opinion, in your case there are 3 things that will prevent this goal:
1. You're not a beginner and you've built enough strength, which means you'll need to put even more stress on your muscles from here on out.
2. You are eating a deficit, which I believe is due to the reduction in carbohydrates. At least I think so, because the practice is that the deficit comes from reducing carbohydrates. The general opinion is that without the presence of carbohydrates, muscles are more difficult to build.
3. Usually when you train for strength you train at a low volume. You won't have enough of an incentive to build muscle if the volume is low, factor 1 and 2 factoring in as well.

I do not claim to be a great specialist in these matters, but this is my opinion.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

I wondered if do only strength blocks for a few years with let´s say low calories do I make it harder or maybe even impossible to gain muscle mass?

For example I´ll do the Strong! strength block back on back on back for a few years. Now I´m incredibly strong and can C&P 40k +. I still look skinny because I haven´t eaten much.

As far as my understanding goes for hypertrophy I have to increase reps and maybe decrease pause times. Because of my strength I start out with the 32k maybe. From there on I assume it will be incredibly difficult to increase the weight because it it already so heavy and more taxing compared to 20k. Therefore making muscle gains very difficult or maybe even impossible.

I have the feeling I´m missing something. Can someone explain?

Foot note: I read the newsletter from Tuesday. I mean sarcoplasma and glycogen. It was the first time I heard about increase in contractile protein. So that may fall under different rules?

Actually a good question..

In my experience, once you double the volume and also nudge the reps up slightly higher but still adhering to the stop signs, there will come a point wherein you will see some levels of muscular development..

Now of course if you're trying to get massive, you will need to also gorge on a lot more calories than usual

 

[Bauer]

I wondered if do only strength blocks for a few years with let´s say low calories do I make it harder or maybe even impossible to gain muscle mass?

For example I´ll do the Strong! strength block back on back on back for a few years. Now I´m incredibly strong and can C&P 40k +. I still look skinny because I haven´t eaten much.

As far as my understanding goes for hypertrophy I have to increase reps and maybe decrease pause times. Because of my strength I start out with the 32k maybe. From there on I assume it will be incredibly difficult to increase the weight because it it already so heavy and more taxing compared to 20k. Therefore making muscle gains very difficult or maybe even impossible.

I have the feeling I´m missing something. Can someone explain?

Foot note: I read the newsletter from Tuesday. I mean sarcoplasma and glycogen. It was the first time I heard about increase in contractile protein. So that may fall under different rules?

Interesting question.

First of all, your low caloric intake gives your body the signal to build the necessary strength without the extra hardware.

Shorter rest for hypertrophy seems to be overrated, mostly. More food, more volume, more reps per set, and more systemic load (for example, by using double bells) seem to be more important.

Indeed, there are anti-glycolytic hypertrophy protocols where you go close to technical failure (or "refusal", sometimes by doing interrupted sets), and then rest 5-15 minutes. The idea is that you do quality work with respectable loads and trigger some biochemical reactions after reach set set - but then rest long enough to get rid of unwanted byproducts. Otherwise, short rests and high reps sets usually lead to using much lower weights and more soreness. It might still work, and you might still like it, though. But it does not seem to be necesssary.

And then there are cases, where the solution is not to do MORE strenght/hypertrophy work, but less or more of other things and recover better. (Sleep more, relax more, eat more + less stress, less long distance work, etc.).

Anyway, if you like Geoff Neupert's plans, then you might try "the Giant" instead of Strong! and up your eating for a while and see how it goes.

 

[Hung]

That means stimulate from that exercise (CnP) is ran out.

 

[Fleurpink]

I admire your toughtfullness to this subject, but so you know who is what and what does here's a simple breakdown for you:
Strength training primarily targets the neural adaptations that allow you to lift heavier weights, while hypertrophy training focuses more on muscle growth through increased protein synthesis. However, both can contribute to muscle size when combined with adequate nutrition.

To optimize muscle growth, you'd typically incorporate a combination of strength training and hypertrophy-focused training, along with sufficient caloric intake and protein consumption.

That's the ABC's of training basically

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

if do only strength blocks for a few years with let´s say low calories do I make it harder or maybe even impossible to gain muscle mass?S

Strength Training Protocols

Strength Training Protocols require a different approach.

1) Maximum Strength Training

a) Low Reps of 1 -5 Per Set

b) Load of 85% or higher of 1 Repetition Max

c) Long Rest Periods of 3 minutes plus between Sets.

2) Hypertrophy Strength Training

a) Moderate to High Repetitions of 8 Reps and more

b) Moderate Load of 60-80% of 1 Rep Max

c) Shorter Rest Period of around 60 Seconds between Sets.

Low Calorie Diet

Increasing Muscle Mass require a Higher Intake of Calories

Hypertrophy Training

Dr. Brad Schoenfeld's research determined three thing optimize and increase in Muscle Mass.

Increasing Maximum Strength is one of them.

Maximizing Strength

Dr. Michael Zourdos found that Hypertrophy Training in a Maximum Strength Training Program optimized it.

Synergistic Effect

The development of one strength enhance the other; dependent on how the program is written.

Synergistically it amount to adding 2 plus 2 and getting 5.

Limiting Calorie Intake

Limiting Calorie Intake limit Muscle Mass; a gain in body weigh increases Muscle Mass.

That is why some sports have Weight Division.

 

[North Coast Miller]

If starting off relatively lean, not eating a surplus will prevent any sort of training from generating hypertrophy.

After that, any strength training will result in some lean mass gain. At some point, further strength gain will be all but impossible without some additional mass.

There are many ways to encourage muscle growth using 3 elements:

- tension

- metabolic stress

- muscle damage

The third, muscle damage, need only be triggered periodically to encourage mobilization of satellite cells into the muscle.

There are no 100% rules for what and how to train for muscle growth, other than nutrition and effort need to a major part of it.

 

[John K]

I wondered if do only strength blocks for a few years with let´s say low calories do I make it harder or maybe even impossible to gain muscle mass?

It would make it difficult, yes. You need a stimulus and you need building supplies. If you aren't stimulating it enough or providing enough building supplies (via food), you will struggle to gain muscle mass - and you may even struggle to gain strength.

For example I´ll do the Strong! strength block back on back on back for a few years. Now I´m incredibly strong and can C&P 40k +. I still look skinny because I haven´t eaten much.

I would doubt you would be "skinny" if you ran Strong! with 40kg bells. Strong! is a great program, and has a "strength" emphasis phase, a "hypertrophy" phase, and a "conditioning" phase. You might not look like a bodybuilder, but you'd like have muscular arms, shoulders, and back that, if you had appropriate diet, would be visible. I would suggest you'd likely also have a decent pair of hamstrings and glutes, and some quad development, due to cleaning 80kg repeatedly.

Look up Jonnie Candito sometime. He made waves in the internet powerlifting world years ago. Doesn't look like much, but ridiculously strong. No one is going to mistake him for a bodybuilder, but he got quite strong while staying rather "small" - but he's still pretty muscular.

 

[Antti]

I think it's a mistake to imagine that strength training will not develop muscle mass. It's just less of it than a full blown hypertrophy program. It may just take longer to do it.

Consider the effective reps model. You can do a single set with five effective reps for hypertrophy. To double the amount of hypertrophy stimulus, you'd need 30 reps in a session. However, with singles with the same load as the five reps to failure, you get a single effective rep with each single. So, in this model, five singles at, say, 85% 1RM, would be as effective as a five rep set with the 5RM. This is because the tension experienced by the muscle fibers affects practically all motor units and the length of the tension due to the hard effort with the heavy load is long enough to stimulate hypertrophy.

Now, diet and sleep and the like also play a big part.

In time, training without hypertrophy will diminish your strength gains. You'll need more contractile tissue for more strength.

Then again, I'll also point out that a 40kg C&P isn't incredible strength and you don't have to worry about it when you reach that goal.

 

[Zwuckel]

First of all, thanks for all the detailed answers. Some things confused me but then I read my question again. It wasn´t articulated very well. Or, and that´s totally possible, I didn´t get the answers.

So this is a totally hypothetical question and instead of "I" I should´ve used "someone". It has not so much to do with my training, nutrition or goals but with the curiousity of my nerd brain.

But the answer to my original thoughts is in the posts I guess.

So here´s the reformualted question or at least a try:

"When someone does only strength blocks, wether KB or Barbell, no hypertrophy and gets really strong but also doesn´t eat much will it be more difficult for that person to gain muscle mass?"

Let´s say this dude



decides "Hey, I want to look really buff and big.

Would he have a harder time to put on muscle mass as someone who is only deadlifting 100 kilo?


So I think there are some hints in the posts:

No. 1 from @Dydo : Someone who is strong enough needs to put more stress on his system therefor it is more difficult. Did I got that right?

Double the volume and up the reps (@Mark Limbaga ) Which then means that someone has to use heavier weights than a beginner. Which can accumulate more fatigue? - It´s something I read here that if your 1RM kb press is 40k the training is more taxing than for someone whose 1RM is 20k.

@Hung : So a different exersive with higher volume and reps could introduce hypertrophy?

@Kenny Croxdale : Right, so when I´m really strong my 60-80% for hypertrophy training would be quite taxing from the overall load and also more difficult to increase the weight from there, right? Is the weight progression at this point then neccessary?

@North Coast Miller : So for regular guys (not the one in the video) a focus on hypertrophy needs to happen at some point.

@Bauer : Very interesting. Didn´t know rest isn´t playing a crucial role. Am I misinformed or was that at some point valid knowledge? Also thanks for the recommendation. Yes, I really like Geoffs work. I´ll probably do a grow plan autumn/winter.

@John K : The stimulus needed for growth would need to be higher than in a beginner, right? Would that be more taxing in total and therefore making it more difficult? - I saw a YT video and it seems some people go back to back with the strength phase of Strong!. - Will check him out.

@Antti : So in genereal no strength increase without an increase in size. Got it. - 40k (double?) C&P is not strong... :crying emoji:

 

[Luis T. Gonzalez]

For example I´ll do the Strong! strength block back on back on back for a few years. Now I´m incredibly strong and can C&P 40k +. I still look skinny because I haven´t eaten much.

I would find it hard to believe that you wouldn't gain some muscle working up to 40kg+ on a 1 arm kb military press. The amount of volume you will need to do to get from pressing 20k-40kg+ will be a lot. It is certainly not necessary to gain weight but I would imagine you would still put on 5-10 pounds during that time frame without trying too.

 

[Luis T. Gonzalez]

"When someone does only strength blocks, wether KB or Barbell, no hypertrophy and gets really strong but also doesn´t eat much will it be more difficult for that person to gain muscle mass?"

The person who is able to lift more weight, decides hey I want to gain 20 pounds. They will definitely be able to do it quicker than someone who is lifting significantly less weight.

 

[silveraw]

Would he have a harder time to put on muscle mass as someone who is only deadlifting 100 kilo?

That specific guy might need to learn what ROM is

But no I think he will have an easier time putting on muscle. If you look at Ronnie, the King, Coleman he would lift heavy and lift lots. Famously squatting 800lbs for reps.

 

[LukeV]

First of all, thanks for all the detailed answers. Some things confused me but then I read my question again. It wasn´t articulated very well. Or, and that´s totally possible, I didn´t get the answers.

So this is a totally hypothetical question and instead of "I" I should´ve used "someone". It has not so much to do with my training, nutrition or goals but with the curiousity of my nerd brain.

But the answer to my original thoughts is in the posts I guess.

So here´s the reformualted question or at least a try:

"When someone does only strength blocks, wether KB or Barbell, no hypertrophy and gets really strong but also doesn´t eat much will it be more difficult for that person to gain muscle mass?"

Let´s say this dude



decides "Hey, I want to look really buff and big.

Would he have a harder time to put on muscle mass as someone who is only deadlifting 100 kilo?


So I think there are some hints in the posts:

No. 1 from @Dydo : Someone who is strong enough needs to put more stress on his system therefor it is more difficult. Did I got that right?

Double the volume and up the reps (@Mark Limbaga ) Which then means that someone has to use heavier weights than a beginner. Which can accumulate more fatigue? - It´s something I read here that if your 1RM kb press is 40k the training is more taxing than for someone whose 1RM is 20k.

@Hung : So a different exersive with higher volume and reps could introduce hypertrophy?

@Kenny Croxdale : Right, so when I´m really strong my 60-80% for hypertrophy training would be quite taxing from the overall load and also more difficult to increase the weight from there, right? Is the weight progression at this point then neccessary?

@North Coast Miller : So for regular guys (not the one in the video) a focus on hypertrophy needs to happen at some point.

@Bauer : Very interesting. Didn´t know rest isn´t playing a crucial role. Am I misinformed or was that at some point valid knowledge? Also thanks for the recommendation. Yes, I really like Geoffs work. I´ll probably do a grow plan autumn/winter.

@John K : The stimulus needed for growth would need to be higher than in a beginner, right? Would that be more taxing in total and therefore making it more difficult? - I saw a YT video and it seems some people go back to back with the strength phase of Strong!. - Will check him out.

@Antti : So in genereal no strength increase without an increase in size. Got it. - 40k (double?) C&P is not strong... :crying emoji:

I think the simple answer is "no". If this same person who is maxing out at their 1RM changes protocol to, say, max out at their 10RM they will, nutrition and rest being adequate, build muscle.

 

[bluejeff]

I put on noticeable (for me) upper body size just doing sets of 3-5 of handstand pushups in a semi-GtG fashion. Being able to lift heavier means you can use a higher weight for hypertrophy. Either your 6-12RM (or whatever range you want to be "hypertrophy range") weight will be higher, or you can simply do more sets at a heavier weight (say, 3-5 RM). Somone who can lift heavier ought to be able to put on muscle just as easy as anothe person. More volume, high tension lifts, eat more.

It's worth noting that some people train for high relative strength. That is, they want to maximize their strength at a given body weight. In other words, they stay as light as possible and try to get as strong as possible, or they at least try not to gain weight.

 

[John K]

@Zwuckel

I'm go to summarize for time efficiency. You are asking two different questions:

Can someone build size using a strength-focused program? Yes.

Can someone build size if they are undereating or are in a deficit? Most likely no.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

"When someone does only strength blocks, wether KB or Barbell, no hypertrophy and gets really strong but also doesn´t eat much will it be more difficult for that person to gain muscle mass?"

Strength Blocks and Hypertrophy

Can someone build size using a strength-focused program? Yes.

As per John K, a gain in muscle mass will occur with Strength Training.

However, it will not produce the same amount of gain as a Hypertrophy Training Program.

"The Bodybuilding Pump"

Higher Repetition Sets produce "The Pump".

"The Pump" is produce due to the Muscle Contraction reducing Ventricle Blood Flow back to the heart.

There is a build up of Lactate (not Lactic Acid) in the Muscles.

Blood is then trapped in the worked Muscles, ballooning it up.

This produce a downstream Anabolic Effect that produce Hypertrophy.

Strength Training with Low Repetitions does not elicit this effect; which is fundamental to Hypertrophy.

With that in mind...

Hypertrophy Training

Hypertrophy Training increase Strength to some degree to minutely comparted to the Maximum Strength Training Protocol.

Individual who perform only Hypertrophy Training Blocks will increase Muscle Mass at the expense of Strength, Power and Speed.

Gaining Weight

A gain in weight will produce a Gain In Muscle Mass.

I am not sure why you are lost on the point.

Research demonstrated that "Couch Potatoes" who did nothing and gained weight, increase Muscle Mass.

The Bad News

The "Couch Potatoes" weight gain was 80% Fat and 20% Muscle; this is a poor trade off.

Right, so when I´m really strong my 60-80% for hypertrophy training would be quite taxing from the overall load and also more difficult to increase the weight from there, right? Is the weight progression at this point then neccessary?

Hypertrophy Training Protocol'

Based on your question, you need to invest time reading information on the differences in Training Protocols for Maximum Strength, Power, Speed, Hypertrophy, Endurance.

60-80% of of 1 Repetition Max for Hypertrophy

This is the protocol for everyone.

Weight progression is fundamental producing great stress.

When followed with rest the body recover and become bigger and/or stronger; dependent on how the program is written.

This due to "The General Adaptation Syndrome"; which is the underlying principle behind Periodization Training.

Take Home Message

Your lack of knowledge is one the big factors that will continue it impede your progress.

You need to make an investment in reading multiple article that break all his down.

Once you read one, read it again.

As per Alwyn Cosgrove/Strength Coach...

"No one ever got dumber from reading a book (research article) etc."

 

[GreenSoup]

Totally apart from the basics of good program design, even tedious programs can work. The key point is that 70%1rm in four sets to failure was as good for building muscle as 15% 1rm to failure in four sets.

Muscle Adaptations to High-Load Training and Very Low-Load Training With and Without Blood Flow Restriction

An inability to lift loads great enough to disrupt muscular blood flow may impair the ability to fatigue muscles, compromising the hypertrophic response. It is unknown what level of blood flow restriction (BFR) pressure, if any, is necessary to reach ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Ignore the blood flow restriction part of the article unless you are interested. It's the unrestricted work to 70 or 15 that I found shocking. So can you build muscle even if you're strong? The article suggests yes if you keep repping out.

AN ADDITION I HAD TO MAKE WITH THE EDIT BUTTON:
That's like having a 750 max squat but squatting a 50lb dumbbell for hypertrophy training! Unless the study is a total lie it does not look like strength will hurt anything