Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
Ahhh.. thanks it looks good at first glance
Other/Mixed Strength and Fat Loss
- Thread starter vegpedlr
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Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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Tim Randolph
Level 7 Valued Member
Very interesting. The flip side of this suggests that lighter people will get more bang for their buck from rucking the same weight. At about 160 pounds, my normal weekly long ruck weight is 40 pounds. That weight does a lot for my overall strength and stability. This is a N=1 study, but the results are very meaningful to me ;-)
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
That makes a lot of sense. The study, small though it was, also concluded that most folks will improve ruck performance quite a bit with basic strength training and until you hit a respectable level, working on endurance and such wouldn't have much meaningful impact.
The really interesting thing about this that I'd never seen on paper before, makes for an argument that one should carry extra weight just for its own sake. So being low bodyfat % or even having a good strength to weight ratio might not be very important depending on what you're doing. This is totally at odds with my entire fitness philosophy.
Tim Randolph
Level 7 Valued Member
Not being big, I often see the advantage that plain ol’ bulk gives a lot of guys, but I really like that my knees feel great and that I can still bounce off the floor in my fifties. Plus I think it’s better for my overall health to carry less weight. I do need to work to stay strong enough, but that’s fun and approachable. As always the lesson here is that there is no one size fits all approach. The weekly ruck that does wonders for me, may not move the needle for someone else.
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
Tim,
40 lbs for longer rucks, and weighing 160 at 50 something, and doing it consistently..
I'd say you're doing extremely well..
Tim Randolph
Level 7 Valued Member
Thanks! And you are very kind. The Strong First organization and community which is filled with people who are doing “extremely well” has been a huge help for me. I ruck because I read about it here and this forum is a big inspiration to keep at it.
May all of us have a happy and strong new year.
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
Yes! Same to you sir!
Starlord
Level 5 Valued Member
There is a lot of factors that can affect the answer. However on brief reflection the 2 biggest one is 1, how advance is a person and 2, how fat is a person?
Let's use the new years resolutioners as an example. With a tendency to be overweight, novices and under muscled.
It is incredibly easy for them to get stronger, lose bodyfat and put on muscle. If you are not a novice trainee any form of strength training will build muscle.
Just implementing a basic strength program like SS or 5×5 will see massive changes in their bodies and athletic performance over the course of the next year.
However if is was a more advance trainee then it becomes much harder. Especially if they are an advance strength trainee like a powerlifter. If for example a masters powerlifters has been competing in the 90kg weight class but wants to drop down 2 weight classes and be leaner in competitions, then I am more likely to conclude that his wilks score will increase but the reality is he will get weaker.
Very broad oversimplification but to summarise one can get leaner and put muscle on but it is situation dependent. One can definitely get leaner and get stronger but it is situation dependent.
Mo04
Level 6 Valued Member
That's a fascinating video. Thanks for sharing.
The benefit of sleeping before midnight is very true. I remember hearing in traditional cultures - who understood the natural rhythm of life - that sleep before midnight is twice as beneficial as sleep after midnight. Midnight is not fixed to 12am - instead, it is dynamic and shifts daily with the sun: it's literally the middle point between sunset and sunrise - so it could be 11pm in one season and 1am in another season.
Dan mentions "keep fasting until you train":
- 2 questions come to mind: 1) does he recommend we train in fasted state? 2) if we train in the evening, should we fast the entire day until evening, or break the fast after 15-18 hours?
pet'
Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,
@Mo04
In general, as far as fat loss goes, training in a fasted state is advised because sugar rate is lower so it obliges the body to use fat as primary fuel.
On the long haul, it also plays a role in increasing insulin sensitivity, which is also a good thing if we want to lose weight. Indeed it will teach the body how to sugar as fuel when we absorb it instead of storing it.
Circadian rythm and experiences show that training performance is improved when we train in the evening or late afternoon (a few hours before sleep of course) because body temperature is higher. Plus testosterone level are higher.
So, following this logic the best option, from my understanding is to train in a fasted state in late afternoon / beginning of the evening, provided our schedule allows us to do so, provided our body tolerates it, and provided fat loss is the goal.
R. Edgley in is recent book 'the art of resilience' states the same. Nonetheless he also insists on something paramount: on one hand there is science, on the other hand, there is what works for you.
Kind regards,
Pet'
@Mo04
In general, as far as fat loss goes, training in a fasted state is advised because sugar rate is lower so it obliges the body to use fat as primary fuel.
On the long haul, it also plays a role in increasing insulin sensitivity, which is also a good thing if we want to lose weight. Indeed it will teach the body how to sugar as fuel when we absorb it instead of storing it.
Circadian rythm and experiences show that training performance is improved when we train in the evening or late afternoon (a few hours before sleep of course) because body temperature is higher. Plus testosterone level are higher.
So, following this logic the best option, from my understanding is to train in a fasted state in late afternoon / beginning of the evening, provided our schedule allows us to do so, provided our body tolerates it, and provided fat loss is the goal.
R. Edgley in is recent book 'the art of resilience' states the same. Nonetheless he also insists on something paramount: on one hand there is science, on the other hand, there is what works for you.
Kind regards,
Pet'
Mo04
Level 6 Valued Member
Thanks Pet' that answers my questions. I'm going to try and re-start fasting, and this time give fasted training a go.
pet'
Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,
@Mo04
You are welcome
If this is not convenient to you (schedule, your body react poorly to it, etc...) this is not an issue. For instance, fasting or not, calorie control may be an option.
If this is possible, you can also incorporate physical exercise in your daily life:
- Stairs instead of elevator
- When you use the public transportation, you stop a little bit before
- Doing a few squats or push up when you enter in a room
etc...
If you control your diet (no junk food, no refined sugar, low alcohol, eat plenty of vegetables, drink plenty of water, eat whole food) and if you succeed in making your lifestyle more active (possibly in addition to your already existing routine), you will lose fat.
Fasting training is what works with me:
- I have always naturally trained that way (I have trained that way since I am 17yo, now I am almost 31)
- My body have got used to it, I guess
- I just do better that way (feel "heavy" when moving while digesting).
For instance, recently, I did a trail of 15km, then a ruck (with 24kg) of 10km in a fasted state, with no issue at all. I did not even feel dizzy afterwards.
As far as diet goes, I really consider it as a medecine, both to prevent and to cure. Using trials (and sometimes mistakes) we have to find what works for us. For me, this is:
- 16:8 IF
- No junk food, no refined sugar, no alcohol
- Very little red meat (but I occasionally eat chicken / turkey).
- Eat fish, tofu, eggs, dairy (reasonable amount), nuts and dark chocolate (at least 90%)
- Plenty of vegetables and fruit (all from the season, basically, I do not eat tomatoe in winter), whole grains
- A lot of water, tea, coffee
Everything is raw, organic.
I always stop 80% full.
Kind regards,
Pet'
@Mo04
You are welcome
Fasted training is not mandatory if fat loss is desired. I consider as a tool among other.
If this is not convenient to you (schedule, your body react poorly to it, etc...) this is not an issue. For instance, fasting or not, calorie control may be an option.
If this is possible, you can also incorporate physical exercise in your daily life:
- Stairs instead of elevator
- When you use the public transportation, you stop a little bit before
- Doing a few squats or push up when you enter in a room
etc...
If you control your diet (no junk food, no refined sugar, low alcohol, eat plenty of vegetables, drink plenty of water, eat whole food) and if you succeed in making your lifestyle more active (possibly in addition to your already existing routine), you will lose fat.
Fasting training is what works with me:
- I have always naturally trained that way (I have trained that way since I am 17yo, now I am almost 31)
- My body have got used to it, I guess
- I just do better that way (feel "heavy" when moving while digesting).
For instance, recently, I did a trail of 15km, then a ruck (with 24kg) of 10km in a fasted state, with no issue at all. I did not even feel dizzy afterwards.
As far as diet goes, I really consider it as a medecine, both to prevent and to cure. Using trials (and sometimes mistakes) we have to find what works for us. For me, this is:
- 16:8 IF
- No junk food, no refined sugar, no alcohol
- Very little red meat (but I occasionally eat chicken / turkey).
- Eat fish, tofu, eggs, dairy (reasonable amount), nuts and dark chocolate (at least 90%)
- Plenty of vegetables and fruit (all from the season, basically, I do not eat tomatoe in winter), whole grains
- A lot of water, tea, coffee
Everything is raw, organic.
I always stop 80% full.
Kind regards,
Pet'
Mo04
Level 6 Valued Member
Pet', thank you for your detailed reply. It's very inspiring.
Unfortunately, I have built up a lifetime of bad eating habits (40 years). In the past, I have experimented with many diets but found Warrior Diet style of eating had decent results and was the most sustainable for me.
For one reason or another I fell off that diet.
Inspired by this thread (specifically from the Dan John video onwards), I've re-started today - in fact I'm drinking my first cup of fasted coffee as I type this message.
Today, I'll break my fast at lunch. Repeat for next few days. Then, reduce lunch from a full meal to a light snack - such as fruit and/or yoghurt.
I'm just nervous about training fasted - something that I have never done.
Currently, I am training (S&S) around lunchtime.
Sometimes, this shifts to evening time.
For lunchtime training I guess it's pretty straightforward - as I've only skipped 1 meal (breakfast).
For evening training, I guess I'll need to eat something at lunch or slightly later - eat something light, not too heavy? Maybe do this initially and then ease into full fast and training as the body acclimatises.
Diet quality is something I'm still working on.- and it's probably my biggest challenge. I'm actively trying to replace refined sugar products with sweet fruits. If I can do this consistently I'll be very happy.
Going forward, I'll be using your post as a template to shift to healthier lifestyle - specifically the 80% full rule: it's something I want to do right now.
Thanks again Pet'
pet'
Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,
@Mo04
Thank you for kind words.
Your process sounds good to me.
You have to be very progressive. This is what you are planning to do. This is important. Indeed if you rush the process, you are likely not making the new diet an habit.
Do not be nervous regarding training. Just try it, see what happens. If you see you are wobbling during a get up for instance, it can be dangerous so stop there.
Kind regards,
Pet'
@Mo04
Thank you for kind words.
Your process sounds good to me.
You have to be very progressive. This is what you are planning to do. This is important. Indeed if you rush the process, you are likely not making the new diet an habit.
Do not be nervous regarding training. Just try it, see what happens. If you see you are wobbling during a get up for instance, it can be dangerous so stop there.
Kind regards,
Pet'
vegpedlr
Level 6 Valued Member
There is some discussion of this over on Dan John’s forum. A good place to post questions, at the source, so to speak.
The idea is to get a good 15ish hour fast between dinner and breakfast. Train before breakfast. Train Easy Strength with a push, pull, and hinge. Ab wheel, a few goblets for mobility. Do some swings, the go for a walk or ruck to finish out the hour of training. Then eat. There are a few other hacks as well, but that’s the main idea.
I’m going to do it this fall, four days a week for three months or so to total 50 sessions. I didn’t something similar a couple years ago, Easy Strength plus Easy Endurance and it worked really well.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Fastest training sounds, intuitively, like it should be a great thing.
But the research shows it doesn't make a difference in fat loss.
“Short-term low-volume HIT is a time-efficient strategy to improve body composition and muscle oxidative capacity in overweight/obese women, but fed versus fasted-state training does not alter this response.”
Interval training in the fed or fasted state improves body composition and muscle oxidative capacity in overweight women - PubMed
Short-term low-volume HIT is a time-efficient strategy to improve body composition and muscle oxidative capacity in overweight/obese women, but fed- versus fasted-state training does not alter this response.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Personally, I don't like working out on a full stomach, but that's just for comfort.
But for fat loss, it doesn't really matter.
More at:
Does Fasted Training Burn More Fat?
If you want to lose body fat, you should train on an empty stomach. Or so people say. But how much truth is there to the 'fasted training' claim? Let's see.
physiqonomics.com
vegpedlr
Level 6 Valued Member
I was hoping someone would link some relevant material. I’m not convinced that fasted training works, or if it does, that it works for the reasons people think. It’s a long running tradition for bike racers to do “bonk rides” or early morning rides on nothing but coffee and water. Problem is, while glycogen stores in the liver are low from the overnight fast, the muscles aren’t.Fastest training sounds, intuitively, like it should be a great thing.
But the research shows it doesn't make a difference in fat loss.
“Short-term low-volume HIT is a time-efficient strategy to improve body composition and muscle oxidative capacity in overweight/obese women, but fed versus fasted-state training does not alter this response.”
Interval training in the fed or fasted state improves body composition and muscle oxidative capacity in overweight women - PubMed
Short-term low-volume HIT is a time-efficient strategy to improve body composition and muscle oxidative capacity in overweight/obese women, but fed- versus fasted-state training does not alter this response.
Personally, I don't like working out on a full stomach, but that's just for comfort.
But for fat loss, it doesn't really matter.
More at:
Does Fasted Training Burn More Fat?
If you want to lose body fat, you should train on an empty stomach. Or so people say. But how much truth is there to the 'fasted training' claim? Let's see.
But I’ve never done them consistently for any period of time. There seems to be quite a bit of anecdotal experience, so maybe there’s something there anyway. I suspect that exercising fasted encourages the body to do something useful with those calories other than storing more fat.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Yeah, but the research indicates that the body just uses whatever fuel it has the handy through the day.
If you have food in your stomach, your body uses it first, exercise or not.
If you have no food, your body burns fat, exercise or not.
If you have a caloric deficit, it will burn more fat.
If you have a caloric surplus, it will store it as fat.
The relative timing of eating and exercise don't appear to matter for fat loss.
I'm always wary of anecdotal experiences. Cognitive bias and placebo effects are powerful.
If you think about it, it would be a pretty bad evolutionary system for any animal to be unable to exert itself hard without food.....
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