Kettlebell SF-KB LCCJ (from BJJ Fanatics) - What Are Your Experiences?

[Zach Silver]

The program is on Bjjfanatics.com they have a labor day sale going on currently.

Thank you for mentioning the sale. I just downloaded the program and it looks fantastic. I’ve been looking for a long term clean and jerk program for some time, and this seems like a perfect fit.

 

[Pete L]

I did my first double sets yesterday to test my mobility.
I tagged five sets of 20+24 kg onto the end of 50 sets with a single 28 kg.
Offset weight jerks felt easier than the cleans. Especially with the bells in question, which are cheap wide handled type. I could definitely feel the extra load on my hamstrings.
I then trained two hours of kick boxing last night and am now ready for a rest today.

 

[Zach Silver]

That is interesting. Actually, I have envisioned a very similar combination: LCCJ Mon/Thu, 044 with Swings + TGU on Tue/Fri.

If you end up doing that, please let me know how it goes. I think these three movements would work together excellently

 

[Pete L]

If you end up doing that, please let me know how it goes. I think these three movements would work together excellently

I'm currently doing two days LCCJ and three of goblet squats with TGU.
Back is too sore today for swings after yesterday's LCCJ.

 

[Bauer]

Re: Combining LCCJ with Q&D @Zach Silver and @Pete L
Yes, I will report back if I try it.

I intend to adhere to these passages when following both plans (SF-KB LCCJ + Q&D O44 with swings):

If you are having an off day, do not roll a die, but do two series (40 reps). (...)
If you are having an off day, do not roll a die. Instead, do 5/4 for both lifts. (...)
A word about days when you are supposed to train, but you just do not have max intensity in you: Do a minimal volume session of 40 reps, but do not go full power. Relax and keep your effort dial at around three-quarters of max. You will still net many benefits from such a session, one being the ability to learn to minimize counterproductive tension in antagonistic muscles.

Easier said than done. But I guess one would need to prioritize one plan over the other.

 

[shano28]

Glad I found this thread.
I too find the single bell plan very pacy, while measuring with the whoop strap I cannot envisage how I get to 3 reps every 30sec and keep heart rate under 151. Maybe time to ditch heart rate monitor and go by feel. Also I find a 2 day programme hard if the main work may end after 10mins
I think I might just shell out and invest in 2nd bells for the 1minute sets

 

[Pete L]

Glad I found this thread.
I too find the single bell plan very pacy, while measuring with the whoop strap I cannot envisage how I get to 3 reps every 30sec and keep heart rate under 151. Maybe time to ditch heart rate monitor and go by feel. Also I find a 2 day programme hard if the main work may end after 10mins
I think I might just shell out and invest in 2nd bells for the 1minute sets

I'm just in the middle of reading an old thread on A+A from @Harald Motz :

Kettlebell - Alactic + Aerobic

If you're here because you're following a link from our podcast with Al Ciampa, Harald Motz' original post has received 100's of replies from our members and is approaching 50,000 page views. It make take you a little while to come up to speed on what you're reading, but I hope you find it...

www.strongfirst.com

My thinking is that with two bells the format of SF-KB is more in line with A+A.
I'm hoping from reading the old forum I can gain an insight into what HR is appropriate. It looks like @Harald Motz breaks 150 bpm.

 

[Bauer]

Glad I found this thread.
I too find the single bell plan very pacy, while measuring with the whoop strap I cannot envisage how I get to 3 reps every 30sec and keep heart rate under 151. Maybe time to ditch heart rate monitor and go by feel. Also I find a 2 day programme hard if the main work may end after 10mins
I think I might just shell out and invest in 2nd bells for the 1minute sets

I think that HR might not be the best indicator here. A+A is about energy systems. LCCJ spreads the load and depletes the muscle's fuels differently than "pure" ballistics like snatches or swings, i.e. slower, while raising HR faster than many other exercises (probably because the upper body is more involved). I think there is a reason why the talk test is used here.

Also, be mindful of any other "stop signs" (as mentioned in the PDF on page 6), like unwanted changes in pace/tempo/form/breathing.

But I get your point and am also considering buying double bells to start with. Let's see.

 

[Pete L]

I think that HR might not be the best indicator here. A+A is about energy systems. LCCJ spreads the load and depletes the muscle's fuels differently than "pure" ballistics like snatches or swings, i.e. slower, while raising HR faster than many other exercises (probably because the upper body is more involved). I think there is a reason why the talk test is used here.

Also, be mindful of any other "stop signs" (as mentioned in the PDF on page 6), like unwanted changes in pace/tempo/form/breathing.

But I get your point and am also considering buying double bells to start with. Let's see.

Okay, that is a fair point and I am still hopeful that switching to the longer cycle, time wise, will make interpretation of the talk test easier without the need to rely on HR.
I believe that as S&S and SF-KB are both GPP the application of the talk test is consistent advice.
I'm planning to use dissimilar sized bells when I switch over. I don't want to delay unnecessarily!!

One thing I don't understand though is your point on ballistics. S&S includes swings and bases the rest period on the talk test. Is it that GPP and strength endurance are different?

 

[Bauer]

Okay, that is a fair point and I am still hopeful that switching to the longer cycle, time wise, will make interpretation of the talk test easier without the need to rely on HR.
I believe that as S&S and SF-KB are both GPP the application of the talk test is consistent advice.
I'm planning to use dissimilar sized bells when I switch over. I don't want to delay unnecessarily!!

One thing I don't understand though is your point on ballistics. S&S includes swings and bases the rest period on the talk test. Is it that GPP and strength endurance are different?

I think I did not express myself clearly as I am also not completly sure about these things. I think the reason for using the talk test is the same for both S&S and the LCCJ plan.

But my take is that average HR might be higher with LCCJ even when passing the talk test because HR might not be perfectly correlated to fuel depletion. Ballistics might use up ATP/CP faster and give you less chance of replenishing them during the effort. The LCCJ might be different here. At least this is one possible conclusion one could draw from Pavels quote on LCCJs in Q&D.

Which leads to an interesting question: At which average HR could you pass the talk test during different exercises?
Running, cycling, climbing, rowing, hiking, swings, snatches, LCCJ, TGU, burpees, might all have a different threshold here.

 

[Pete L]

I think I did not express myself clearly as I am also not completly sure about these things. I think the reason for using the talk test is the same for both S&S and the LCCJ plan.

But my take is that average HR might be higher with LCCJ even when passing the talk test because HR might not be perfectly correlated to fuel depletion. Ballistics might use up ATP/CP faster and give you less chance of replenishing them during the effort. The LCCJ might be different here. At least this is one possible conclusion one could draw from Pavels quote on LCCJs in Q&D.

Which leads to an interesting question: At which average HR could you pass the talk test during different exercises?
Running, cycling, climbing, rowing, hiking, swings, snatches, LCCJ, TGU, burpees, might all have a different threshold here.

I agree it is an interesting question. It may differ for different exercises depending on the number of muscle groups and the systemic load.

For example, I pushed to get to 60 sets yesterday knowing that it was probably not by the book. I was interested to observe the impact on my HR.
When I studied the data it was evident that my rest had an impact on how low my HR dropped between sets. I typically mix walking with fast and loose in my arm. When I did less additional body movement, my HR dropped more, but I was missing out on the benefits of F&L.
Also, when I finished the LCCJs, I walked around the garden to cool down. My heart stagnated at 60% to 70% despite easily passing the talk test.

And, yes, I agree that SF-KB is different in construction to Q&D in terms of the objective of depleting ATP reserves.

 

[shano28]

I'm just in the middle of reading an old thread on A+A from @Harald Motz :

Kettlebell - Alactic + Aerobic

If you're here because you're following a link from our podcast with Al Ciampa, Harald Motz' original post has received 100's of replies from our members and is approaching 50,000 page views. It make take you a little while to come up to speed on what you're reading, but I hope you find it...

www.strongfirst.com

My thinking is that with two bells the format of SF-KB is more in line with A+A.
I'm hoping from reading the old forum I can gain an insight into what HR is appropriate. It looks like @Harald Motz breaks 150 bpm.

I just completed an uneven bell set workout out of curiosity and had no problem keeping within the 151 in 30mins. With the single I’m spiking after 8-10mins (I know that’s general conditioning but I just feel the added putting the bell down and recleaning the bell for the other arm adds allot of work not in the double bell programme).

 

[Pete L]

I just completed an uneven bell set workout out of curiosity and had no problem keeping within the 151 in 30mins. With the single I’m spiking after 8-10mins (I know that’s general conditioning but I just feel the added putting the bell down and recleaning the bell for the other arm adds allot of work not in the double bell programme).

Where were you in terms of talk test please?

 

[shano28]

Where were you in terms of talk test please

Could easily pass talk test. I was using 20 &16. On the single I was using 24. Talk test on 24 I could prob still pass but HR was staying at 160 so I stopped. Just to note on both I was only doing lccj*1. On the single I felt like I had very little time left. That’s why I mentioned above I can’t picture the speed I’d have to go to hit 3, drop bell hit another 3 drop bellMaybe it comes with time and efficiency improvements but the video instructional doesn’t look like they are clean and jerking any quicker than 10sec up and down.

Ps; I have always thought HR of 151 was easy to pass talk test wise, but I used it for swings and get ups so I find it an easier measurement just to track

pps; I didn’t take a rep max between the two

ppps; I am not bitching about the programme just trying to get my head around it

 

[Pete L]

Could easily pass talk test. I was using 20 &16. On the single I was using 24. Talk test on 24 I could prob still pass but HR was staying at 160 so I stopped. Just to note on both I was only doing lccj*1. On the single I felt like I had very little time left. That’s why I mentioned above I can’t picture the speed I’d have to go to hit 3, drop bell hit another 3 drop bellMaybe it comes with time and efficiency improvements but the video instructional doesn’t look like they are clean and jerking any quicker than 10sec up and down.

Ps; I have always thought HR of 151 was easy to pass talk test wise, but I used it for swings and get ups so I find it an easier measurement just to track

pps; I didn’t take a rep max between the two

ppps; I am not bitching about the programme just trying to get my head around it

I built up from C+J and am currently on C+J+C+J+C with 28 kg, having done 60 sets yesterday. My HR breached 80% at around 18 minutes but managed to dip back down into the 80-90% zone for most of the other sets. I'm 45 so that was above 140. I worked hard for the final sets using nasal breathing throughout.

Time wise I was around 8 seconds for one long cycle. This was 13 to 15 for two. But by the time I'd added the third clean I was down to 13 to 14 seconds. So I've ended up more efficient. And also more eager to put the bell down!

I'm looking forward to doubles after Plan B as double cleans seem to be solid work.

 

[BJJ Shawn]

I have not begun the LCCJ portion of this program, so this is only conjecture on my part, but I think with a single bell the timing should be POSSIBLE to basically go non stop for the duration of the work. @Boris Bachmann has shown his HR graph doing 6 RPM snatches and he stays in the MAF zone for 1-2 HOURS. LCCJ is not a snatch, but at 6 RPM and switching hands after every 3, I can see it as a possibility to work continuously and keep yourself in the talk test range for the duration.

 

[shano28]

I built up from C+J and am currently on C+J+C+J+C with 28 kg, having done 60 sets yesterday. My HR breached 80% at around 18 minutes but managed to dip back down into the 80-90% zone for most of the other sets. I'm 45 so that was above 140. I worked hard for the final sets using nasal breathing throughout.

Time wise I was around 8 seconds for one long cycle. This was 13 to 15 for two. But by the time I'd added the third clean I was down to 13 to 14 seconds. So I've ended up more efficient. And also more eager to put the bell down!

I'm looking forward to doubles after Plan B as double cleans seem to be solid work.

Ok that makes sense. I think I’m overthinking the HR and will concentrate more on talk test and check HR after. Also I maybe need a bit more practice to speed up my lifts without affecting form

 

[Pete L]

I have not begun the LCCJ portion of this program, so this is only conjecture on my part, but I think with a single bell the timing should be POSSIBLE to basically go non stop for the duration of the work. @Boris Bachmann has shown his HR graph doing 6 RPM snatches and he stays in the MAF zone for 1-2 HOURS. LCCJ is not a snatch, but at 6 RPM and switching hands after every 3, I can see it as a possibility to work continuously and keep yourself in the talk test range for the duration.

That's interesting...
I've been totally focused on getting the work done so I can rest between sets as opposed to spreading the work and resting mid-movement.
I suppose the TUT would be high and the necessary shoulder mobility high to allow a rest, of sorts, at lockout.
Or were you meaning to rest in the rack?

 

[BJJ Shawn]

That's interesting...
I've been totally focused on getting the work done so I can rest between sets as opposed to spreading the work and resting mid-movement.
I suppose the TUT would be high and the necessary shoulder mobility high to allow a rest, of sorts, at lockout.
Or were you meaning to rest in the rack?

I am not in a position to answer that, maybe someone with more experience could do so. I BELIEVE you could spread it across the whole movement to keep the RPM at about 6, but again, I'm not the right person to ask.

 

[Sean M]

@Bauer is right - don’t worry about HR except as an anecdote afterwards. If you can’t nasal breathe (“losing your breath”), that or 30:00 are your stop signs. Otherwise keep going and absorb the days load with a smile.