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Barbell A Barbell Squat Challenge for 2022 (315lb x As Many Reps As Proper)

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John K said:
I read today that quick reps required more force than paused squats. Not sure how that jives with my experience paused squatting.
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F=ma

Comparing the force production of paused Vs bounced squats isn't 100% straightforward. If you pause long enough to kill your stretch reflex, your muscles have to do all of the work.

Personally, I like to implement both paused reps and pauseless reps. I'm also a big fan of "dead" versions of lifts and lifts like the box squat and the floor press. However, on all lifts and all reps, 99% of the time, I try to do the concentric as fast as I can.
 
Hung said:
How do you train using the bounce?during the squat, do your quads and glutes start to fire rapidly after the bounce is gone or they work from beginning of the ascendant?
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Accelerate down at the bottom, push hard for maximum acceleration on the rebound.

Greg says to practice it on cleans and front squats, but I was taught to do it on high bar, too, just to engrain the instinct.

 
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Antti said:
F=ma

Comparing the force production of paused Vs bounced squats isn't 100% straightforward. If you pause long enough to kill your stretch reflex, your muscles have to do all of the work.

Personally, I like to implement both paused reps and pauseless reps. I'm also a big fan of "dead" versions of lifts and lifts like the box squat and the floor press. However, on all lifts and all reps, 99% of the time, I try to do the concentric as fast as I can.
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Ah so fast reps are more forceful because of the speed/acceleration component but it doesn’t necessarily mean the muscles are working harder?

A lot of this biomechanics stuff gets confusing to me. I’m not smarter than the average bear.
 
watchnerd said:
Accelerate down at the bottom, push hard for maximum acceleration on the rebound.
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At what % of your maximum can yiu do this? I imagine this doesn't work at close to max? If yiur max front squat was 400lb, for example, could you do this with 390lb? I doubt I could. For me, all heavy weights become a grind.
 
william bad butt said:
At what % of your maximum can yiu do this? I imagine this doesn't work at close to max? If yiur max front squat was 400lb, for example, could you do this with 390lb? I doubt I could. For me, all heavy weights become a grind.
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For a squat, for me, up to about 85-90% / 3-5 RM, depending if I'm having a good day or not.

For a clean, up to about 90%-95% of my max clean. Above that, it gets a bit moot; if I have to really grind out a clean recovery, I'm almost certainly going to miss the subsequent jerk.
 
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John K said:
Ah so fast reps are more forceful because of the speed/acceleration component but it doesn’t necessarily mean the muscles are working harder?

A lot of this biomechanics stuff gets confusing to me. I’m not smarter than the average bear.
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If we take two identical situations, where we have two squats, both done with maximal effort. One with long pause or even a dead start, one with the stretch reflex. In both cases the muscles work maximally, but the bounced squat moves faster and thus with more force. However, do not equate greater force with a greater training stimulus.

If we want to recruit all motor units to become stronger, we have to try to use as much force as possible. With light weights this means maximal acceleration throughout the lift. A load sufficiently heavy enough turns all motor units on regardless of acceleration.

In reality, with light weights, we have to start to decelerate during each concentric. So we can't use maximal force throughout the lift. And often momentum from the start of the lift can leave us on cruise control. Heavier loads or accommodated resistance like bands and chains can help avoid the issue with deceleration. If it is an issue, that is.
 
John K said:
Ah so fast reps are more forceful because of the speed/acceleration component but it doesn’t necessarily mean the muscles are working harder?

A lot of this biomechanics stuff gets confusing to me. I’m not smarter than the average bear.
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All other things being equal, more force = more muscles working harder.

(although there is some conservation of energy in elastic stretch rebound, it's may be netted out by the additional energy required to reverse momentum instead letting it dissipate passively)

Note that's not necessarily the same as your nervous system working harder, so it may not be perceived that way.
 
watchnerd said:
All other things being equal, more force = more muscles working harder.
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@Antti and @watchnerd Why if I take the same weight and try to squat it maximally fast vs a 5s pause at the bottom does the pause feel harder? I guess I always thought that it took more force but it seems not. Is there more acceleration getting from dead stop to the top?
 
John K said:
@Antti and @watchnerd Why if I take the same weight and try to squat it maximally fast vs a 5s pause at the bottom does the pause feel harder? I guess I always thought that it took more force but it seems not. Is there more acceleration getting from dead stop to the top?
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Kinetic energy potential conservation preserved by elastic rebound.

It's "free force" that you don't have to actively produce.

If you pause at the bottom, the kinetic energy from the bar starting at a higher potential energy state at the top of the squat gets absorbed and dissipated, leaving you with static start inertia to overcome.
 
John K said:
@Antti and @watchnerd Why if I take the same weight and try to squat it maximally fast vs a 5s pause at the bottom does the pause feel harder? I guess I always thought that it took more force but it seems not. Is there more acceleration getting from dead stop to the top?
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Like @watchnerd said, your body absorbs the force during the descent, like a spring.

I think the problem here is what we consider as force.

You need to work more for it - though not in terms of work! Maybe we'll avoid that rabbit hole and the rest of the physics.

Doing the dead stop especially taxes the muscles that typically get a free ride with the bounce.
 
Antti said:
Like @watchnerd said, your body absorbs the force during the descent, like a spring.
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And the same reason why many lifters, including me, prefer dynamic starts on floor pulls.

By using a dynamic start, I get to put a little more kinetic energy into the system at the start of a dead stop pull.
 
watchnerd said:
Kinetic energy potential conservation preserved by elastic rebound.

It's "free force" that you don't have to actively produce.

If you pause at the bottom, the kinetic energy from the bar starting at a higher potential energy state at the top of the squat gets absorbed and dissipated, leaving you with static start inertia to overcome.
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Antti said:
Like @watchnerd said, your body absorbs the force during the descent, like a spring.

I think the problem here is what we consider as force.

You need to work more for it - though not in terms of work! Maybe we'll avoid that rabbit hole and the rest of the physics.

Doing the dead stop especially taxes the muscles that typically get a free ride with the bounce.
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Thank you both, I think I understand better. I get confused easily with things like this and typically revert to meathead logic, but y'all helped me understand it a bit better.
 
John K said:
Thank you both, I think I understand better. I get confused easily with things like this and typically revert to meathead logic, but y'all helped me understand it a bit better.
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One of the big philosophical differences between S&C for a sport (especially a barbell sport like WL or PL) vs physique work is that in sport you're trying to use as many kinetic "cheats" as possible to allow you to perform better -- that's part of being an athlete.

Utilizing bar whip is another example.

In other words, get the best results with the least work / least energy cost / highest efficiency.

Whereas for bodybuilding, you're often trying to do the opposite -- maximize the work the body is doing in order to induce physical change.
 
watchnerd said:
One of the big philosophical differences between S&C for a sport (especially a barbell sport like WL or PL) vs physique work is that in sport you're trying to use as many kinetic "cheats" as possible to allow you to perform better -- that's part of being an athlete.

Utilizing bar whip is another example.

In other words, get the best results with the least work / least energy cost / highest efficiency.

Whereas for bodybuilding, you're often trying to do the opposite -- maximize the work the body is doing in order to induce physical change.
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I know that I'm being major in the minor, but for the secondary/assistance/accessory exercises of the training day it's good to "feel the muscle"; for example Max Aita loves belt squat and he stresses that the lifter should feel his/her quads working and not letting the butt shoot first
 
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