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Barbell A beginner's barbell program

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Bryant W

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Before posting my question, I would like to thank Strongfirst for the forum. I have been following S & S since May, and have found the program and this forum immensely valuable.

My question is regarding which barbell program would most suit my needs. Before going into goal details here are the requisites:

Demographics: 41 and 5/6 years old (but who's counting), male, 5'11, 186 pounds, long limbed, not overweight but not ripped (though I like to imagine I can still see a faint hint of the abdominal grillwork:)

Injury history: Developed a problem with recurrent muscular back sprains after an awkard fall while playing basketball around 20 years ago. Most recent significant problem was around 5 years ago, at which time an MRI showed minimal multifocal lumbar disc bulging,no nerve impingement, a few areas of mild facet arthropathy; basically expected age related changes. Did some rehab and cleared without restriction. Basically doing well since then, a few twinges here or there or the lumbar back will start to get tight if I do too much (after three or four consecutive swing days or long bike rides, for instance), but it gets better quite quickly with a few days easy work. Had some shoulder impingement issues (long history of baseball as a youth, have done triathlon for the past few years and swimming can set it off). Have a left lateral ankle issue that only really flares if I run too much.

Movement: Have not had a movement screen, but generally move well. Getting the deep squat movement pretty solid was one of the things that helped end my back pain cycles when I was younger, and I have tried to keep the movement solid, though I rarely loaded it until recently.

Sports history: Baseball and wrestling as a kid. Basketball in college. Was generally athletic, fast sprinter, strong enough to compete in my sports but not strong. After the back issues and on entering the work force, exercise was minimal: kept generally mobile, a few calisthenics, some easy yoga, stride out and sprint a few times a month. Began triathlon a few years ago to try to get back in shape. Became fitter but had issues with overuse injuries (achilles tendinitis, shoulder impingement). This spring was playing with my son and noticed how general movement (lateral shuffling, changes in direction) were lacking in power and felt awkward. Decided to look into getting stronger/more athletic and not just fitter. Led me to S & S. Have felt great on it other than the occasional back tightness after multiple swing days. Shoulder has been feeling great with the getups. Currently do a hybrid Flexible steel/super joints morning wake up, and S & S most evenings, with some easy cycling thrown in here and there.

Goal: Short term: Would like to achieve some of Dan John's basic strength standards with the barbell. In particular - bodyweight squat, bodyweight bench, 1.5 bodyweight deadlift. Not sure what my max's are at present, but I just this week started Faleev/Pavel's 80/20 workout, 5 day version, and worked up to 5 sets of 95 for bench, 115 for back squat, 105 for deadlift. Started pretty conservative to get a feel for it. Will be increasing all lifts next week by the recommended 10 lbs. I have the pull up standard already, so would like to focus on these 3 lifts. Long term: No specific goal at present, though I am looking for a mountain to climb, so to speak. In the meantime, planning on cycling S & S and a barbell program every 3-4 months or so. In the summers I will likely do some cycling to get outdoors, so would like to keep some easy cycling in the winter, likely low heart rate stuff a few times a week while the focus is on the barbell.

Specific questions:
1. This week I began the 80/20 Faleev workout by Pavel, planning on the 5 day a week program. Reading the comments afterwards, I began to get the impression it is also a weight gaining program. I really don't have any interest in gaining much weight. Is this the right program given my goals? Any other programs that would hit all the above that come highly recommended.

2. I find that I benefit from an easy warm-up. Thought a warm up of easy low rep swings (5 x 5) and 3 getups per side would keep me in touch with S & S skills while warming up. However, Pavel's Faleev article was pretty clear about not adding other exercises to the program. Would such a warm up be detrimental?

For any long sufferers who made it all the way through this message, thanks in advance for your help and advice. And thanks to Strongfirst for this fantastic resource!

Bryant

P.S. Shameless Michigan plug to Strongfirst: I began S&S after the Kalamazoo kettlebell course. Please keep Michigan in mind for future courses; would love to attend one. Of course, I can always travel, but it never hurts to ask...
 
Try Strong lifts or Starting strength and start with an empty barbell fOE ll liftS and progress. You could also try tactical barbell (excellent book) and start with empty bar.
 
Bryant - To your questions:

1. From your body frame info, I would imagine you don't pile on muscle easily. That said, if consistent lifting is an new en devour for you, putting on some muscle is inevitably, regardless of your program (assuming you eat and sleep well).

2. 25 swings and 3 TGU wont diminish the program.

Also, with your injury background, I would recommend getting an FMS screen. There are most likely asymmetrical dysfunctions that should be addressed.

Good luck and have fun!
 
Morrisda, Thank you for your input. Looked into and was interested in Starting Strength and Stronglifts. My basement home gym has just enough room to press a kettlebell, but a loaded barbell won't fit. I'd have to modify those two programs to make them work. Haven't looked into tactical barbell. Will look it up.

Andrew, Thank you for your answers. Definitely right that I don't pack on the pounds easily. While I'm not interested in bulking up, muscle development as a side effect of strength development is certainly acceptable. Hopefully the warm up question didn't seem too stupid. But I've read enough warnings for newbs not to tinker with programs I thought it would be worth asking. The FMS screen I've considered many times, but with things going pretty well I always seem to have something else taking priority. Since I'm about to start adding weight to the bar, maybe it's time to prioritize this as well.
 
It's time to get strong and quit worrying about your abs. If you think a 235lb version of you with 30 more pounds of muscle and 20 more pounds of fat will make you look like anything other than an imposing badass, you are... mistaken. That's the aesthetics problem handled. Nobody looked at Ronnie Coleman or Dorian Yates and thought "my gosh....he's so LEAN!" No, it's more like "that guy is freaking Hyoooge!". I'm not encouraging bodybuilding. Just an eschewing of the Modern American Male's preoccupation with "thin-ness". Let's get about the business of building capability.

That said, you're in the right ballpark with Starting Strength. The 3rd edition of the book by the same name is nothing less than a textbook on the "how's" and "why's" of basic barbell training. Unlike most books on the subject, it's written specifically for the beginning lifter, going into very great detail on all aspects of setting up for and safely executing the five basic barbell lifts that make up an optimal beginner barbell program. Be advised though: it's demanding. Eating for recovery and growth, sleeping properly, being consistent, and being diligent about adding the weight to the bar and doing the prescribed work is both crucial and challenging. There's plenty of help for you available, but I have gone far enough plugging somebody else's program on this site, so you and The Googles will have to go to all the trouble of finding them yourselves. I'm a horrible person.
 
Another good one to look into is Johnny Shaeffer (aka Johnny Pain's) Greyskull Linear Progression. I'm gonna be working a review to come out later this week, but it's in the same vein as Starting Strength insomuch as it focuses on four core barbell exercises (press, bench press, deadlift, and squat) just with a slightly different rep scheme of 2x5/1x5+ for the bench, press, and squat and 1x5+ for deadlift (the 5+ meaning five or more quality reps).

If you have conditioning requirements or goals, Greyskull Linear Progression makes allowances for it which is its difference from Starting Strength.

I'm actually running the program in question right now, so I'd be more than willing to answer queries you might have.
 
A lot of mass gain has to do with diet. Eat clean and reasonable (but definitely get enough protein), and you shouldn't need to worry about unwanted mass. This program definitely oriented to pure strength and mass increase would just come as a result of getting stronger (rather than a mass program with the secondary result of getting stronger). Pavel competed under 181 lbs at about 6' tall I believe, so staying under 200 is definitely something you can look to do, and even get leaner, too for a higher strength/bodyweight ratio. In the program he suggests taking at least 5 minutes rest between sets (even if you feel ready sooner). This will definitely help in gaining strength without unwanted mass.

DISCLAIMER: I do not speak from experience as much as from absorbing and re-dispensing whatever I have picked up from these forums and the writings of Pavel, Dan John, Gray Cook, and other friends of StrongFirst.
 
I like Greyskull LP much more than SS. It's slower, but more fun with the rep maxes you set each workout. Although SS is a very good program i'd only ever recommend it for e.g. a high school footballer trying to make certain strength numbers or weight during the summer to make it into the team or something like that.
If you're an athlete in another sport (soccer, martial arts, tennis etc.) or just a recreational guy getting strong for life you don't need such an agressive approach like SS. It requires a lot of dedication, food and quality rest. Seen over the period of 1-2 years other programs will get you to the same strength levels without the weightgains (fat) that come with SS.
Greyskull LP was designed with SS in mind, but for people who still wanted to be in shape (lean and conditioned).

Short: You want to have a certain number on your squat/bench/press/dl as fast as possible or just be very big fast (with added fat)? Do SS.
You want to get stronger and put on some (lean) mass with little to no fat? Do Greyskull, Tactical Barbell, 531 (with assistance for your goals) and watch your diet.
You just want to get strong and don't care about bigger muscles? Do PTTP

You should still buy the 3rd edition of SS though just for the detailed description of the lifts.
 
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Lots of good advice here already.

Bryant, if you weigh 186 and are deadlift 105, I'd say the first order of business is to get you with a trainer who can help your technique, or at least get some more weight on the bar if you feel you can do it safely on your own. A 1.5 x bodyweight is where I start my deadlift warmups, and my strength is nothing to write home about (and I'm older than you, have had pretty serious back issues, etc.) . Deadlifting 105 @ 186 tells me you haven't learned how to do the lift, and that's probably the case with your other lifts as well.

I don't mean to be blunt, but it needs to be said. If you're out of rehab mode, then 105 is too light for even a one-handed deadlift.

But I want to be very clear - you need to put more weight on the bar, but just putting more weight on the bar without understanding and being able to implement the principles of strength as we teach them here isn't going to help you and it's likely to get you hurt. So do it but do it right.

If you can't get yourself a trainer, post a video of each of your lifts here for comments and suggestions.

If you want to learn good technique, I would start with the deadlift and Pavel's, "Power To The People!" There is nothing out there that teaches the principles of strength with a barbell as well, IMHO.

-S-
 
Thank you to everybody for their replies. Alot of info and many programs/recommendations to consider.

Steve, I am using PTTP as resource; very useful. Was thinking of doing the program, but I enjoy squats and was looking for a program that incorporated them. Also was hesitant to do deadlifts daily, since in my experience with S & S, after 3-4 consecutive days the back would start to get pretty tight. Was glad to find Pavel's Fareev 80/20 program on the Four Hour Work Week site.

As for bluntness, it is welcome, by the way. My purpose to improve strength is why I am here. How do you recommend determining a starting weight for 5 x 5? If it's useful, the method I used to determine a starting weight is as follows. The Fareev article said to be "conservative". I looked at starting weights on stronglifts (start at 95 lbs for DL) and SS (recommended starting with the bar, performing sets of 5 while increasing the weight, and using the first weight where the bar "slowed down" to do the first 5 x 5). Went SS style, and the weight of "slowing down" ended up being 105 for me. Figured by consensus I was in the right ballpark. I admit the weight wasn't particularly challenging, and I tolerated the workout just fine and was planning on upping the weight next week by 10 lbs as per the program recommendations, but figured I was in the right ballpark for a starting weight and time and progression would take care of the rest.

With regards to trainers, there aren't any StrongFirst barbell instructors in the area (Grand Rapids). If you or anyone knows of one in the area, please let me know. Instruction is welcome. Haven't looked into powerlifting coaches in the area since I was just hoping to hit up a SF instructor or attend some SF courses, but I could look into that as well. Otherwise, I'll have to become more tech savy and figure out how to post videos.

Thanks again - Bryant
 
Do PTTP, just do it 3-4 times a week instead of 5. Consider it a concession to your advancing years. :) I like Mon/Tue/Thu/Fri. That way you never get more than two days in a row.

There is a point, however, in the high frequency which shouldn't be overlooked. Several points, actually, but one of the big ones is to use weights that allow you to DL every day. If that's 105 lbs. for now, so be it, but if you lift 105 lbs. x 5 reps x 2 sets 5 days a week, you will get stronger and it will start to feel lighter.

-S-
 
Steve Freides said:
Do PTTP, just do it 3-4 times a week instead of 5. Consider it a concession to your advancing years. :) I like Mon/Tue/Thu/Fri. That way you never get more than two days in a row.

There is a point, however, in the high frequency which shouldn't be overlooked. Several points, actually, but one of the big ones is to use weights that allow you to DL every day. If that's 105 lbs. for now, so be it, but if you lift 105 lbs. x 5 reps x 2 sets 5 days a week, you will get stronger and it will start to feel lighter.

-S-
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Fair enough. Simple, sound advice as usual. The squat can wait. PTTP it is. Tried it tonight. Bumped the weight up by 30 lbs; nothing to write home about, but progress. Still didn't feel too challenging in terms of effort. Next week, we'll see how recovery goes, and make a decision about the type of cycling.
 
Bryant, you will recognize as a sign of progress when you find your form is _better_ once you reach a certain weight. A moderately heavy weight has, provided you are paying attention and have been able to consistently lift with good technique, a way of enforcing that good technique. While the weight is heavier, getting the lift right sometimes actually feels easier. (I know that sounds crazy but it's true, at least for me.)

Carry on, and please keep us posted as you progress. Post a video from time to time.

-S-
 
Bryant - You should consider doing Foundation Training for your back. I tried it, loved it and all my back problems disappeared. I am now a certified instructor. Foundation Training will teach you to move correctly, hip hinge/posterior chain technique and strengthening. I no longer worry about my back at all.
 
morrisda said:
Try Strong lifts or Starting strength and start with an empty barbell fOE ll liftS and progress. You could also try tactical barbell (excellent book) and start with empty bar.
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I've heard a little bit about tactical barbell, I'd love to hear more about your opinion about it. Excellent for technique? programming? for hypertrophy or strength goals?
 
wespom9 said:
I've heard a little bit about tactical barbell, I'd love to hear more about your opinion about it. Excellent for technique? programming? for hypertrophy or strength goals?
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Tactical Barbell consists of two books that form the system, one for strength & one for conditioning. They're both top of the line as far as programming and results go, but in my opinion the strength book isn't ideal for beginners. You're better off with Starting Strength or Pavel's 3 x 5 template with linear progression (Beyond Bodybuilding).

TB is for when you get past that beginner stage, and your goals expand and become getting strong AND well conditioned in multiple fitness domains. It's basically for tactical types or athletes that can't avoid doing heavy cardio, rucking, running, skills training and the like for hours at a time. TB strength templates reflect this, and all the lifting is frequent/submaximal/waved intensity to make life easier if you're doing heavy-duty conditioning on the side.

It's an all-strength, vaguely anti-hypertrophy approach, although it does include a "Mass" template in rare cases where mass might be functional or desired.
 
Tactical Barbell is just plain 3x5 with some percentages thrown in. Start with pavel 5 x 5 and do some swings.
 
wespom9 said:
I've heard a little bit about tactical barbell, I'd love to hear more about your opinion about it. Excellent for technique? programming? for hypertrophy or strength goals?
Click to expand...
Tactical Barbell's great. But as others have pointed out not a beginner barbell program. You'd be better served using any standard 5x5 linear template to start. Tactical Barbell becomes a godsend when you start lifting heavy. When you start playing with respectable poundages, it becomes very hard to maintain linear progression with something like SS, because you're almost always training at your edge with the heaviest weight you can handle every session. Now throw in some cardio like hill sprints or prowler throughout the week. Good luck maintaining that long term. That's where the simple percentages and waved loads of TB become a huge asset.

As a beginner though (forgive me if you're not, just going off the thread subject matter), linear progression is the fastest way to build up to that point because you're adding weight to the bar very frequently. When that slows down or stops, then it's a good time to consider things like TB or 531.
 
I am not a beginner no, just general interest in it. I have hit most of my barbell goals and at this point am almost exclusively kb's and bodyweight. I just love reading about programming and want info for when I work with clients.
 
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