Kettlebell Barbell to KB humbling

[Rick213]

Hello all! Thank you for this amazing community first off.
Secondly, I am blown away by the difference in swinging the 32kg vs the 24gs for S&S. I am relatively strong with the barbell lifts, 250 bench, 315+ squat and 400+ deadlift. I am about 5'6" and 150# to give context.
Since starting down the KB path, I have been astounded by how much better my body feels than compared to strictly BB training. I have also been astounded about the lack of transfer of my strength/skill from barbell to kettlebell.
No real question here, more.of just thinking out loud. You all who have reached simple+ are outstanding and highly impressive.

 

[Jamesjones]

Kettlebells will make your muscles denser and more equipped for everyday life than barbells but by all means don't stop using the barbell.

Keep it up comrade

 

[Antti]

Kettlebells will make your muscles denser and more equipped for everyday life than barbells but by all means don't stop using the barbell.

Exactly how?

 

[Bauer]

Exactly how?

Listen to the man himself, esp. after 4:15 (not "exactly how" but quite informative anyway)

 

[Anna C]

Exactly how?

I think it's more an anecdotal thing than a scientific evidence-based thing. Generally I prefer evidence-based, but I will say that I do think there's some anecdotal truth to the statement. My opinion is that it comes from 1) eccentric/ballistic loading, 2) conditioning along with strength, 3) doing more movement (variety and volume of movement) while training.

 

[Jamesjones]

Exactly how?

Your tendons and muscle fibers won't necessarily become larger but will become harder and stronger. You'll build that farmer type strength rather than the gym strength.

 

[WhatWouldHulkDo]

Even as a lover of kettlebells, I don't put any particular faith that kettlebells themselves do specific things that the right barbell movement couldn't do as well... but I think @Rick123 has hit on something interesting; there's places where the modalities carry over, and places where they don't. So, who would you rather be:

1. The guy with monster barbell lifts who can't handle a 1/3 BW kettlebell
2. The guy with respectable barbell lifts who can swing a 1/3 BW kettlebell powerfully
3. The guy who can swing a 1/2+ BW kettlebell powerfully, but can't bench press BW

I would expect most generalist would prefer to be guy 2.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I think it has a lot more to do with specificity. Kenny linked to this podcast w/Keith Barr, should be required listening for any fitness buff:

#156 Dr. Keith Baar | Tendon Health and Elastic Power Performance

Dr. Keith Baar covers all ends of the spectrum on tendon action in isometric training, tendon rebuilding, nutrition, modes of loading, and more.

www.just-fly-sports.com

Tension builds density, and speed of loading changes how stiff or supple the tendon gets. One of the interesting takeaways is that the tendon sheets run entirely through the muscle.

Something I noticed going from KB was it didn't really help with my sandbag training, a little bit with some of the cleans maybe but not with any of the more grindy stuff. I was fairly humbled by the comparative starting weights.

It was pretty easy to jump right into the metcon type of work though, more of an endurance adaptation.

 

[Gravytrain]

from a grappling perspective, barbells have done very little in terms of making me stronger on the mats where KBs have made me very "mat strong" even being 50+.

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

1. The guy with monster barbell lifts who can't handle a 1/3 BW kettlebell
2. The guy with respectable barbell lifts who can swing a 1/3 BW kettlebell powerfully
3. The guy who can swing a 1/2+ BW kettlebell powerfully, but can't bench press BW

I think I'm somewhere between 2 and 3.

I'd be happybeing #1 if the 'monster barbell lifts' in question were snatch and clean & jerk but then I don't think it'd be physically possible to do those things to a competitive standard without having the required power to show a 1/2+ BW kettlebell who's boss.

 

[william bad butt]

So, who would you rather be:

1. The guy with monster barbell lifts who can't handle a 1/3 BW kettlebell

With all due respect, I'm not convinced that this person exists (#1). If you get stronger with barbells, you get stronger. If you get stronger with kbells, you get stronger. There may be some technique development with a specific lift, but if you increase your bench press and deadlift, you will be more capable to swing heavier bells (and vice versa).

For example, a 200lb man who deadlifts 500# and bench presses 300 lb is not going to struggle with a 32kg kb swings (unless he has never done a swing before). There may be some exceptions, some special circumstances, but Strong is Strong!

 

[WhatWouldHulkDo]

With all due respect, I'm not convinced that this person exists (#1). If you get stronger with barbells, you get stronger. If you get stronger with kbells, you get stronger. There may be some technique development with a specific lift, but if you increase your bench press and deadlift, you will be more capable to swing heavier bells (and vice versa).

I suppose this is what I get for putting down an actual number, instead of just saying "heavy" and "even heavier".

I agree completely, I'm trying to point more to the idea of choosing to be really really good at one thing, or just really good at several things. If you compete, obviously, focus on where you compete. If you're a generalist, get strong in multiple modalities.

 

[Nate]

I think a great thing about KB is working the entire body through multiple planes and rotations all at once. Creates that tied together grace and power of a true athlete. Imagine all the different things that get worked in a one armed 1/2 bodyweight kb snatch. Add volume and your energy systems are covered too. Massive bang for the buck.

 

[Rick213]

Fantastic conversation. I would like to follow up by saying I feel my shortcomings are definitely on the eccentric, lengthening for my posterior, side of the swing.
While deadlifting with a BB, I do not drop the bar from the top or lose control on the way down. I practice both paused and bounced deadlifts as well. The KB really seems to have unique ballistic or "multi-dimensional" characteristics that do not occur with a barbell. Maybe this is what Pavel was talking about with non domain specific strength in S&S and why we see so many WTHEs. Maybe this is also why we see so many WTHEs from snatching with a KB.

 

[william bad butt]

I suppose this is what I get for putting down an actual number, instead of just saying "heavy" and "even heavier".

I agree completely, I'm trying to point more to the idea of choosing to be really really good at one thing, or just really good at several things. If you compete, obviously, focus on where you compete. If you're a generalist, get strong in multiple modalities.

My apologies. I'm an engineer. "Arguing with an engineer is a lot like wrestling with a pig in the mud. After a while, you realize the pig likes it".

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Kettlebell training requires a lot of attention to detail which often is unexpected by those fairly new to it..

As you dive deeper, you find how a lot of the lessons learned, re-learned and unlearned can apply across all modalities

 

[JLynch]

Hello all! Thank you for this amazing community first off.
Secondly, I am blown away by the difference in swinging the 32kg vs the 24gs for S&S. I am relatively strong with the barbell lifts, 250 bench, 315+ squat and 400+ deadlift. I am about 5'6" and 150# to give context.
Since starting down the KB path, I have been astounded by how much better my body feels than compared to strictly BB training. I have also been astounded about the lack of transfer of my strength/skill from barbell to kettlebell.
No real question here, more.of just thinking out loud. You all who have reached simple+ are outstanding and highly impressive.

In my training the carrier from KB to BB I movements like the deadlift have been profound.. specifically with heavy swings compacting the shoulders and activating the Lats in concert with the ballistic hip drive..

I believe the carry over tends to be a one way street due to the limitations of a bar.. ..fixed fulcrum.. center of gravity..

 

[Antti]

Listen to the man himself, esp. after 4:15 (not "exactly how" but quite informative anyway)

I don't think it's so much the tool but the training. For example, the breathing and bracing isn't tied to a specific modality.

I think it's more an anecdotal thing than a scientific evidence-based thing. Generally I prefer evidence-based, but I will say that I do think there's some anecdotal truth to the statement. My opinion is that it comes from 1) eccentric/ballistic loading, 2) conditioning along with strength, 3) doing more movement (variety and volume of movement) while training.

I think the eccentric on the kettlebell ballistics is likely the best part of the kettlebell and somewhat specific to it, at least compared to a barbell, alongside being relatively easier. But, for example, we have medicine ball or shot put throws which get an eccentric and are true ballistics.

I can't really see eye to eye on the two other aspects. I see them as part of training, not the tool.

Your tendons and muscle fibers won't necessarily become larger but will become harder and stronger. You'll build that farmer type strength rather than the gym strength.

Could you explain why the kettlebell does it, what is the cause to this effect? Why will bodyweight, dumbbell, barbell, etc not build it?

I think a great thing about KB is working the entire body through multiple planes and rotations all at once. Creates that tied together grace and power of a true athlete. Imagine all the different things that get worked in a one armed 1/2 bodyweight kb snatch. Add volume and your energy systems are covered too. Massive bang for the buck.

What makes the KB specifically do this instead of bodyweight, dumbbell, exercise band, barbell, or the like? Is the 1/2 bodyweight kb snatch a better exercise than one done with a dumbbell or a barbell with appropriate loading?

Kettlebell training requires a lot of attention to detail which often is unexpected by those fairly new to it..

As you dive deeper, you find how a lot of the lessons learned, re-learned and unlearned can apply across all modalities

Does the kettlebell training require more attention than other modalities? Is the attention class different between SFG, SFB and SFL certifications? Or is it more that "Good training requires a lot of attention" instead of "Kettlebell training requries a lot of attention"?



In my experience and understanding the kettlebell is just load, a bit offset. There are no magical properties to it. With the same programming, it builds just the same strength as any other appropriate tool.

 

[Jamesjones]

Could you explain why the kettlebell does it, what is the cause to this effect? Why will bodyweight, dumbbell, barbell, etc not build it?

I believe the ballistic training and the awkward weight make the smaller stabilization muscles work the other styles of training can develop this but not the same way kB can

 

[Mark Limbaga]

I don't think it's so much the tool but the training. For example, the breathing and bracing isn't tied to a specific modality.




Could you explain why the kettlebell does it, what is the cause to this effect? Why will bodyweight, dumbbell, barbell, etc not build it?



What makes the KB specifically do this instead of bodyweight, dumbbell, exercise band, barbell, or the like? Is the 1/2 bodyweight kb snatch a better exercise than one done with a dumbbell or a barbell with appropriate loading?



Does the kettlebell training require more attention than other modalities? Is the attention class different between SFG, SFB and SFL certifications? Or is it more that "Good training requires a lot of attention" instead of "Kettlebell training requries a lot of attention"?



In my experience and understanding the kettlebell is just load, a bit offset. There are no magical properties to it. With the same programming, it builds just the same strength as any other appropriate tool.

Quality training regardless of modality requires a high level of attention..

What I have noticed though whenever I teach workshops is there is always that "one guy" who thinks he got it figured out then realizes through the workshop that there's more to the kettlebell than perceived initially.

All principles apply, there are just certain principles of movement that are best learned initially with a kettlebell before being applied to a different modality.

Same way certain musical pieces are best learned or delivered via a given instrument but can be applied to multiple instruments