Kettlebell Barbell to KB humbling

[Kenny Croxdale]

The reason the kettlebell doesn't go airborne in a swing is because the person is holding on to it. If the grip fails then the kettlebell does indeed go airborne.

Let Go

Deliveraely letting go of the Kettlebrell at the top of the swing allows it to go airborne.

Obviously, you need a soft landing space for the Kettlebell so that you don't destroy it.

I took mine outside into my yard. The Kettlebell produce a few crater in the yard.

Rather than destroying your yard or the Kettlebell, try these...

Two Methods

1) Banded Kettlebell Swings

2) Horizontally Jumping with the Kettlebell.

Ballistic Training

Ballistic training - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

While the information below pertains to the Bench Press, the same applies to the Kettlebell Swing or any other movement

..."performing speed repetitions as fast as possible with light weight (e.g., 30–45% of 1-RM) in exercises in which the bar is held on to and must be decelerated at the end of the joint’s range of motion (e.g., bench press) to protect the joint does not produce power or speed training but teaches the body how to decelerate, or slow down. If the load can be released into the air (i.e., the bar be let go at the end of the range of motion) the negative effects are eliminated."

Additional research has shown that as much as 75% of a movement can be devoted to slowing the bar down. Elliot, et al. (1989) reported that during 1-RM bench presses, the bar decelerates for the final 24% of the range of motion. At 81% of 1-RM, the bar decelerates for the final 52% of the range of motion. Research has shown that for best results it is important to load the bar with the amount of weight that allows for positive acceleration to be maintained through the full range of motion for the lift. An effective ballistic lift develops speed throughout the entire range of motion of the lift until the moment of release.

Plyometric Bench Press Training for More Power and Strength
Powerlifting USA Magazine, May 2002, Croxdale and Morris

Plyometric bench training for 1rm increases

I am very interested in this. When I plateau with linear progression, I plan on using chains, bands, and stick-weights/small-weights to break over. But I also was thinking of plyometric stuff. I really like the medicine ball drops in the article below. Has anyone done these or similar...

www.elitefitness.com

Some of the information from Wikipedia was obtain from "Plyometric Bench Press Training for More Power and Strength", Powerlifting USA Magazine, May 2002.

 

[banzaiengr]

As far as going from the 24K bell to heavier. Some of my observations over the years.

I had been lifting for years. When I first started KB's I began with a 12K. Like any kind of lifting I was able to increase weight fairly quickly in the beginning.

The turkish get-up is a movement unlike many or movement that can be done with a bar. It takes lots of practice. You will be able to get by with poor form with lighter weights but as the weight increases this will not work and could get dangerous. Own a weight before increasing.

Eventually you will get close to what is going to be your max. I increased fairly quickly to a 32K. From the 32K to the 40K was a long time. Over time I went to something else and increasing my TGU didn't become as important. I never got 10 get-ups in 10 min. Had I continued 10 in 10 with the 40 may have been as far as I could get.

Experienced lifters will get to a point where gains come hard. For instance, at some point a 10 or maybe even a 5 lb. increase in your bench can take a long time naturally. With KB's you don't have the luxury of increasing weight in small amounts like you do with a bar.

There are other lifts you can do to increase your TGU. I found heavy overhead carries to be a big help. But to become proficient in a lift and increase a lift you must do that lift.

 

[the hansenator]

Thanks.

I have a follow up question: When comparing a speed bench press to a kb swing, it seems one difference is the bench press is an arm motion that's completed when the arms are extended. If the bar isn't slowed it could leap out of your hands or pull you off the bench if enough momentum were generated. Where the swing is a hip motion which is completed when the hips are extended but the arms are still in motion. Or is that approaching the point of splitting hairs?

Edit: Does this influence the effectiveness of the swing as an exercise or are we just discussing the definition of the word "ballistic"?

Let Go

Deliveraely letting go of the Kettlebrell at the top of the swing allows it to go airborne.

Obviously, you need a soft landing space for the Kettlebell so that you don't destroy it.

I took mine outside into my yard. The Kettlebell produce a few crater in the yard.

Rather than destroying your yard or the Kettlebell, try these...

Two Methods

1) Banded Kettlebell Swings

2) Horizontally Jumping with the Kettlebell.

Ballistic Training

Ballistic training - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

While the information below pertains to the Bench Press, the same applies to the Kettlebell Swing or any other movement

..."performing speed repetitions as fast as possible with light weight (e.g., 30–45% of 1-RM) in exercises in which the bar is held on to and must be decelerated at the end of the joint’s range of motion (e.g., bench press) to protect the joint does not produce power or speed training but teaches the body how to decelerate, or slow down. If the load can be released into the air (i.e., the bar be let go at the end of the range of motion) the negative effects are eliminated."

Additional research has shown that as much as 75% of a movement can be devoted to slowing the bar down. Elliot, et al. (1989) reported that during 1-RM bench presses, the bar decelerates for the final 24% of the range of motion. At 81% of 1-RM, the bar decelerates for the final 52% of the range of motion. Research has shown that for best results it is important to load the bar with the amount of weight that allows for positive acceleration to be maintained through the full range of motion for the lift. An effective ballistic lift develops speed throughout the entire range of motion of the lift until the moment of release.

Plyometric Bench Press Training for More Power and Strength
Powerlifting USA Magazine, May 2002, Croxdale and Morris

Plyometric bench training for 1rm increases

I am very interested in this. When I plateau with linear progression, I plan on using chains, bands, and stick-weights/small-weights to break over. But I also was thinking of plyometric stuff. I really like the medicine ball drops in the article below. Has anyone done these or similar...

www.elitefitness.com

Some of the information from Wikipedia was obtain from "Plyometric Bench Press Training for More Power and Strength", Powerlifting USA Magazine, May 2002.

 

[Steve Freides]

Ballistic

Ballistic means that a body or object goes airborne.

That does not occur with Kettlebell Swings; it's more of a Quazi-Ballistic Movement.

Feel free to substitute "quick lifts" or "explosive lifts" for "ballistic" if you prefer.

The reason the kettlebell doesn't go airborne in a swing is because the person is holding on to it.

Yes. This:

Ballistic training - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

begins with "Ballistic training, also called power training ..."

I think we're all on the same page here, but calling a kettlebell swing a "power lift" would confuse us all.

-S-

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

When comparing a speed bench press to a kb swing, it seems one difference is the bench press is an arm motion that's completed when the arms are extended. If the bar isn't slowed it could leap out of your hands or pull you off the bench if enough momentum were generated.

Ballistic Bench Press Throws

Performing Bench Press Throw develops power through the full range of the movement.

I've posted information on this site about the effectiveness of Bench Press Throw.

I performed them for years with a free weights.

Bench Press Battlefield

Manipulate the CNS and Tap Into Hidden Strength!

www.t-nation.com

Chris Thibaudeau (Strength Coach) recommends them as well as other, like Dr Jim Stoppani.

Ballistic Bench Press
Thibaudeau

The objective is to lower the bar to the chest, throw the load in the air, then catch it and start again. The load you use should be light, because the goal is not to just be explosive, but to be ballistic.



Bar Throw & Press | Exercise Guide


This video demonstration of the Smith Bench Press Throw

If the bar isn't slowed it could ...pull you off the bench if enough momentum were generated.

Pulling You Off The Bench

Yes, it could slightly pull you off the bench if you continued to accelerate through the full range of the movement.

"Joint Whiplash"

As the the per National Strength and Conditioning from Wikipeida, list above notes, continuing to accelerate all the way though the full range of the movement and not letting go of the bar essentially elicits a whiplash effect with your joints.

That is why lifter...

Decelerate Bar Speed

This prevents Joint Whiplash or coming off the bench.

This means the Power is developed is in narrow range of the movement; "Additional research has shown that as much as 75% of a movement can be devoted to slowing the bar down."

Thus, Power development may only occur in 25% of the movement.

Where the swing is a hip motion which is completed when the hips are extended but the arms are still in motion. Or is that approaching the point of splitting hairs?

Edit: Does this influence the effectiveness of the swing as an exercise or are we just discussing the definition of the word "ballistic"?

Deceleration During The Kettlebell Swing

Light to moderate weighted Kettlebell Swings to around the waist to chest area means a deceleration of the bell is going to occur. A lifter stop accelerating the bell in the movement, allowing it to float to the waist or chest position.

So yes, deceleration of any movement in any movement limits power "influences the effectiveness of the swing", if the objective is Power Development.

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

That looks like fun. I never thought I'd catch myself wanting to have a go on a Smith machine.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I think we're all on the same page here, but calling a kettlebell swing a "power lift" would confuse us all.

Agreed.

That is why I often provide some definition of the term being used.

Once a term is mislabeled, it usually too late to change it.

An example is...

Eccentric Contraction

An eccentric is a lengthening of the muscles in a movement.

A contraction is a shortening of the muscle in a movement.

Eccentric Contraction is used in most research articles.

How can muscles lengthen and shorten at the same time?

Eccentric Contraction is an oxymoron; it can be both.

I prefer Chris Thibaudeau's term, Eccentric Movement or Eccentric Action.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

That looks like fun. I never thought I'd catch myself wanting to have a go on a Smith machine.

Smith Machine

A Smith Machine has some benefits. There are some Assistance Exercises that you can perform in it that you can't with Free Weights.

That doesn't mean that I am going out and buying one.

However, a great alternative is...

Scrape The Rack "Smith Machine" Exercises

Like a Smith Machine it...

1) Allows you to place more of the work load on the primary muscles in the movement by minimizing the Stabilizer Muscles.

2) Allows you to work the muscle from a different angle in the movement that you can't with a Free Weight Movement.

Video Training Examples

1) John Meadows Scrape The Rack Press


2) Quad Scrape The Rack


3) Scrape The Rack Bench Press


4) Dave Tate Scrape The Rack Seated Press


5) Dave Tate Swiss Bar with Chains Scrape The Bar Standing Press

 

[banzaiengr]

As far as going from the 24K bell to heavier. Some of my observations over the years.

I had been lifting for years. When I first started KB's I began with a 12K. Like any kind of lifting I was able to increase weight fairly quickly in the beginning.

The turkish get-up is a movement unlike many or movement that can be done with a bar. It takes lots of practice. You will be able to get by with poor form with lighter weights but as the weight increases this will not work and could get dangerous. Own a weight before increasing.

Eventually you will get close to what is going to be your max. I increased fairly quickly to a 32K. From the 32K to the 40K was a long time. Over time I went to something else and increasing my TGU didn't become as important. I never got 10 get-ups in 10 min. Had I continued 10 in 10 with the 40 may have been as far as I could get.

Experienced lifters will get to a point where gains come hard. For instance, at some point a 10 or maybe even a 5 lb. increase in your bench can take a long time naturally. With KB's you don't have the luxury of increasing weight in small amounts like you do with a bar.

There are other lifts you can do to increase your TGU. I found heavy overhead carries to be a big help. But to become proficient in a lift and increase a lift you must do that lift.

LOL, put this reply in the wrong thread. I have no idea how I did that but boy this getting old isn't for wimps.

 

[Nate]

A little example: Ive done almost exclusive KB & BW work for at least a year. Thought I'd test a little today. Don't know my actual max bc this wasn't a full rep max, but I'd guess I'm at ~2.5bw...? Thank you KB swings!

 

[Bret S.]

Hello all! Thank you for this amazing community first off.
Secondly, I am blown away by the difference in swinging the 32kg vs the 24gs for S&S. I am relatively strong with the barbell lifts, 250 bench, 315+ squat and 400+ deadlift. I am about 5'6" and 150# to give context.
Since starting down the KB path, I have been astounded by how much better my body feels than compared to strictly BB training. I have also been astounded about the lack of transfer of my strength/skill from barbell to kettlebell.
No real question here, more.of just thinking out loud. You all who have reached simple+ are outstanding and highly impressive.

First I've seen of this thread, my n=1 is kb has a much greater carryover to 'day strength' vs barbell, and I've done barbell training for a long time during my life. Kettlebells helped my joints and lower back feel better (more resilient) like a barbell never could.

KB carryover to construction work is phenomenal, and I ain't exactly young anymore.

Just my experience