Hypertrophy Hypertrophy w/puddleduck

[Jeff Roark]

I don't post a lot on here but I do read quite a bit. There seems to be hypertrophy threads popping up all the time on here now. I am stunned at some of the recommendations. I see quite a few asking for advices, and then turning around and giving other people advices(I love using "advices").

My advices to the majority of you is to listen to whomever is posting under puddleduck. He has provided the best advices for hypertrophy that I have read on here. Something that baffles me is how many make out strength training and hypertrophy training to be almost polar opposites. From my 35 years of experience, real strength and hypertrophy training is one and the same. The suggestion of "increasing volume" just for the sake of it is idiotic. Someone mentioned when you get to certain advanced levels of strength "you need to increase the volume to progress". I am an advanced trainer and have had close to elite level lifts for someone who is drug free. I have found over the years that I can only increase volume for a short period of time, and then I start to go backwards. I'm not talking about big volume increases either. The truth is the more advanced I become, I actually need much less volume . The weights I am using now push me to the edge and anymore would simply send me backwards in a hurry.

I am doing 1 single full body workout per week now due to my circumstances, but, with my limited sets I continue to gain strength, and I have added some definite size to my upper back. Why would I need more volume for volume sake? I don't and neither do the majority of you on here. You need to focus on progressive poundages in the 4-8 reps ranges for a couple sets.

I retire this month after 25 years behind the wall and will have more flexibility with my training. I plan on making myself 3 full body workouts and rotate through them doing one every 5 days or a Mon-Fri-Wed-Mon type set up. I'll have 4-6 exercises and do each for 1-3 sets of 3-6 reps for my own personal goals. My goals are more hypertrophy oriented, but I continue to focus on progressive poundage's. Don't you think that if I push any of my exercises 6RM up 25-50lbs that my 1rm will have gone up and if I am eating enough I will have had added a bit of muscle?

So, if you all want hypertrophy, listen to puddleduck's advices.

 

[North Coast Miller]

@Jeff Roark

I'm with you on the volume critique. There are factors associated with a better hypertrophic response, and some of it is volume related, but is by no means linear - more like a threshold beyond which you just pour increasing amounts of recovery resources that could have made more of you instead.

A great deal of it IMHO has to do with eating strategies and intensity of effort, which can look like a lot of different approaches.

 

[puddleduck]

Blimey, I’m blushing at that. Thank you! Was gong to say though - and he responded first - north coast miller has some great stuff on here.

Tbh most of my content is from listening to and applying Chris Beardsley and Borge fagerli’s stuff but it has had some steroidal like effects on my old frame.

I totally agree with your planned approach though, is exactly how I currently train and it has been revelationary

Edit: I’m gonna show my son this because I’ll be damned if he listens to a single bloody word I say

 

[John K]

Don't you think that if I push any of my exercises 6RM up 25-50lbs that my 1rm will have gone up and if I am eating enough I will have had added a bit of muscle?

Yes

Why would I need more volume for volume sake? I don't and neither do the majority of you on here. You need to focus on progressive poundages in the 4-8 reps ranges for a couple sets.

I don't necessarily disagree Jeff, but I have seen really good results when I focus on triple progression in the 8-12 rep range. Could be one of us is wrong... or it could be that they both work.

 

[3letterslong]

Blimey, I’m blushing at that. Thank you! Was gong to say though - and he responded first - north coast miller has some great stuff on here.

Tbh most of my content is from listening to and applying Chris Beardsley and Borge fagerli’s stuff but it has had some steroidal like effects on my old frame.

I totally agree with your planned approach though, is exactly how I currently train and it has been revelationary

Edit: I’m gonna show my son this because I’ll be damned if he listens to a single bloody word I say

lol I've got several posts from North Coast Miller bookmarked, but I'm afraid I've missed your posts. I hope you feel the pressure's on you to write more about hypertrophy now....

 

[silveraw]

I have seen really good results when I focus on triple progression in the 8-12 rep range

Adding sets does wonders for me when adding weight stops working.

Something that baffles me is how many make out strength training and hypertrophy training to be almost polar opposites.

Agreed. People get bigger and stronger at the same time all the time. Even Deadlift Dynamite has a bodybuilding day in it.

 

[3letterslong]

I see quite a few asking for advices, and then turning around and giving other people advices(I love using "advices").

Let me just state for the record that nobody should listen to me, not even me. Unless I'm talking about how to mess up training -- then everyone should listen.

 

[WxHerk]

Let me just state for the record that nobody should listen to me, not even me. Unless I'm talking about how to mess up training -- then everyone should listen.

Sorry. Could you please repeat that? I was busy messing up my own training….

 

[Jeff Roark]

Blimey, I’m blushing at that. Thank you! Was gong to say though - and he responded first - north coast miller has some great stuff on here.

Tbh most of my content is from listening to and applying Chris Beardsley and Borge fagerli’s stuff but it has had some steroidal like effects on my old frame.

I totally agree with your planned approach though, is exactly how I currently train and it has been revelationary

Edit: I’m gonna show my son this because I’ll be damned if he listens to a single bloody word I say

I am a Stuart McRobert disciple. I have used several effective plans for short periods of time, but the majority of my training has been straight out of the Brawn book, with things I learned from my uncle and others along the journey. Stuart trumps everyone in my opinion.

 

[Jeff Roark]

Yes

I don't necessarily disagree Jeff, but I have seen really good results when I focus on triple progression in the 8-12 rep range. Could be one of us is wrong... or it could be that they both work.

I have seen progression with those ranges also, so they both work but, I always start to burn out with the higher reps. I think the fatigue starts to rack up on me. I think long term if one has healthier joints they would gain more strength and muscle in the 3-6 rep range with an intelligent progression. For instance using a Hepburn style progression, going from 3x3 to 3x8 over the weeks.

 

[Jeff Roark]

Adding sets does wonders for me when adding weight stops working.

Agreed. People get bigger and stronger at the same time all the time. Even Deadlift Dynamite has a bodybuilding day in it.

The problem is "you just need to up your volume" posts. How much do they need to increase it? How do they know they need to increase it? When you say "adding sets does wonders for me when adding weight stops working", what do you mean in particular when adding weight stops working?

Let me just state for the record that nobody should listen to me, not even me. Unless I'm talking about how to mess up training -- then everyone should listen.

I was taking your advices in particular! j/k

 

[silveraw]

How do they know they need to increase it?

Easy, when what you are doing isn't working and you haven't tried adding volume.

How much do they need to increase it?

10-20% Enough to induce a novel stimulus, not so much that you can't recover.

When you say "adding sets does wonders for me when adding weight stops working", what do you mean in particular when adding weight stops working?

When my heavy week doesn't increase weight for a couple cycles. Then add in a couple extra sets after the heavy set of the day. Normally I do 3-5 working sets of a given movement. volume blocks get 5-8.

 

[Jeff Roark]

Easy, when what you are doing isn't working and you haven't tried adding volume.

10-20% Enough to induce a novel stimulus, not so much that you can't recover.

When my heavy week doesn't increase weight for a couple cycles. Then add in a couple extra sets after the heavy set of the day. Normally I do 3-5 working sets of a given movement. volume blocks get 5-8.

I am speaking in general here. I wonder how many have outran their ability to recover and adapt from their over aggressive poundage progressions? Its like the idiotic poundage progression that is advised on some of these 5x5 programs. That type of nonsense runs people straight into a wall. What if they slowed their progressions down like Brad Steiner advised, adding a small weight every 2-3 weeks? I think their ability to get stronger would be enhanced tremendously without having to add junk volume.

Another option would be a modified Hepburn. Doing 1-5 singles followed by 3x3. Add 1 single and 1 rep to one set each workout. Then add a bit of weight. Progression would last mush longer this way.

 

[Jeff Roark]

Easy, when what you are doing isn't working and you haven't tried adding volume.

10-20% Enough to induce a novel stimulus, not so much that you can't recover.

When my heavy week doesn't increase weight for a couple cycles. Then add in a couple extra sets after the heavy set of the day. Normally I do 3-5 working sets of a given movement. volume blocks get 5-8.

I also see you are using a 5/3/1 program. Other than BBB I would consider it a higher volume program.

My main issue is just blanket recommendations to increase volume when most haven't made it to intermediate levels of strength. I made it to advanced levels with simple basic programs that were low to low-medium workloads.

 

[Boris Bachmann]

Edit: I’m gonna show my son this because I’ll be damned if he listens to a single bloody word I say

Sometimes I have to remind my kid that people are/were actually willing to pay to hear me speak/teach/coach. I'm sure he just thinks "What a bunch of losers THOSE PEOPLE must be!"

 

[North Coast Miller]

How many people here are using step loading set by set as opposed to straight sets of "X" reps?

 

[Golder]

Really interesting and helpful thread.
And very relatable to me!

A few years back, when I was around 40ish, the programming at the gym I was at went into an alleged hypertrophy phase. Lots of sets of 12s on whatever they could think of.
2 days in I felt like hot trash. Tried to stick with with and let my body adapt. Didn’t happen. Inflammation ramped up, joints were sore, DOMS was outta control. Mood started to go down hill as inflammation kept increasing. This is all with eating like hungry hippo and sleeping plenty.

The young 20-somethings who wrote the programming treated me like I was crazy when I told them “this just isn’t working for me.”

Anyways, I’ve since found a better gym and great coaching, but even now, when I find myself looking up from a hole I put myself in, it’s usually a volume problem. (Or a life stress affecting my recovery capacity problem.).

I’m sure I’m not “typical” but also glad to hear I’m not a total outlier.

 

[silveraw]

without having to add junk volume

It’s only junk if it doesn’t work!

I also see you are using a 5/3/1 program. Other than BBB I would consider it a higher volume program.

haha BBB is what I break out when the press stalls.

Its like the idiotic poundage progression that is advised on some of these 5x5 programs

Same sort of thing with volume. It’s a way not the way. Take it too far and you hit a wall. Either physically or timewise.

although if you just have limited weight selections it can become more important. But then again when was the last time someone ran RoP all the way through? 2009?

 

[John K]

I have seen progression with those ranges also, so they both work but, I always start to burn out with the higher reps. I think the fatigue starts to rack up on me. I think long term if one has healthier joints they would gain more strength and muscle in the 3-6 rep range with an intelligent progression. For instance using a Hepburn style progression, going from 3x3 to 3x8 over the weeks.

I wonder how much of that will - or can - vary by the individual.

 

[watchnerd]

I don't post a lot on here but I do read quite a bit. There seems to be hypertrophy threads popping up all the time on here now. I am stunned at some of the recommendations. I see quite a few asking for advices, and then turning around and giving other people advices(I love using "advices").

My advices to the majority of you is to listen to whomever is posting under puddleduck. He has provided the best advices for hypertrophy that I have read on here. Something that baffles me is how many make out strength training and hypertrophy training to be almost polar opposites. From my 35 years of experience, real strength and hypertrophy training is one and the same. The suggestion of "increasing volume" just for the sake of it is idiotic. Someone mentioned when you get to certain advanced levels of strength "you need to increase the volume to progress". I am an advanced trainer and have had close to elite level lifts for someone who is drug free. I have found over the years that I can only increase volume for a short period of time, and then I start to go backwards. I'm not talking about big volume increases either. The truth is the more advanced I become, I actually need much less volume . The weights I am using now push me to the edge and anymore would simply send me backwards in a hurry.

I am doing 1 single full body workout per week now due to my circumstances, but, with my limited sets I continue to gain strength, and I have added some definite size to my upper back. Why would I need more volume for volume sake? I don't and neither do the majority of you on here. You need to focus on progressive poundages in the 4-8 reps ranges for a couple sets.

I retire this month after 25 years behind the wall and will have more flexibility with my training. I plan on making myself 3 full body workouts and rotate through them doing one every 5 days or a Mon-Fri-Wed-Mon type set up. I'll have 4-6 exercises and do each for 1-3 sets of 3-6 reps for my own personal goals. My goals are more hypertrophy oriented, but I continue to focus on progressive poundage's. Don't you think that if I push any of my exercises 6RM up 25-50lbs that my 1rm will have gone up and if I am eating enough I will have had added a bit of muscle?

So, if you all want hypertrophy, listen to puddleduck's advices.

I dunno.

At age 54, while I can keep my squat at 3 plates and my clean at 2 plates and my 250 m rowing split at 1;40 in maintenance mode, I can’t get my legs to get meaningfully bigger without a lot of volume.