silveraw
Level 9 Valued Member
I think that is pretty spot on. Over time, most people should probably be hitting a range of intensities, sets, and reps.
Hypertrophy Hypertrophy w/puddleduck
- Thread starter Jeff Roark
- Start date
Jeff Roark
Level 7 Valued Member
Longer Interset Rest Periods Enhance Muscle Strength and Hypertrophy in Resistance-Trained Men - PubMed
Schoenfeld, BJ, Pope, ZK, Benik, FM, Hester, GM, Sellers, J, Nooner, JL, Schnaiter, JA, Bond-Williams, KE, Carter, AS, Ross, CL, Just, BL, Henselmans, M, and Krieger, JW. Longer interset rest periods enhance muscle strength and hypertrophy in resistance-trained men. J Strength Cond Res 30(7)...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Jeff Roark
Level 7 Valued Member
I do this also, but getting to deep into the higher reps and increased sets has to be limited for me. I like working up to a heavy single or 3 and then back the weights down for 2-3x3-6 for the majority of my work. I was dropping back down to around the 70% range for higher rep sets for a good bit but it just wasn’t doing the job.
I have been hammering my Titan seated row for 3x3-6 reps for the a good while now. I start at a weight that I can get 3x3 and work it up adding a rep when it’s there until I get 3x6. It’s put some mass on my upper back, which is my main focus right now but my strength increases with dealing with my big 310lbs sandbag has blown my mind.
Jeff Roark
Level 7 Valued Member
3letterslong
Level 6 Valued Member
3letterslong
Level 6 Valued Member
On a more serious note, after i watched this, youtube sent me to your longstrength video and I thought that was really cool. You did them as a warm-up, but it looks like a great way to get that metabolic component North Coast Miller talks about after strength training.
puddleduck
Level 6 Valued Member
It’s not so much an argument as a discussion but I do think the details matter…. The high volume low rest to hypertrophy approach you mention is a really inefficient way to achieve hypertrophy. Of course many ways will yield some hypertrophic response, just as you might arrive at your destination by leaving your house and walking round and round until you find it, but other ways are better. Many of the mechanisms we believed drove hypertrophy are looking less and less valid and there are emerging models that look increasingly strong. So it’s still worthy of discussion
Shorter rests will reduce motor unit recruitment in subsequent sets and so make them less effective for hypertrophy. The higher reps will generate greater CI related fatigue which will increase recovery requirement and/or reduce effectiveness of subsequent workouts
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puddleduck
Level 6 Valued Member
really disagree with the listed hypertrophy prescription. Higher reps and shorter rest certainly isn’t the only way and i believe is a less effective way to approach this.
There’s nuance to this, but again for most people at most times I would say 5-8 reps is the magic, 2-3 mins rest between sets, erring on the longer side for more fatigue inducing movements.
The difference - I would posit - is that training for strength is usually movement based primarily (ie you are training to get a bigger bench or similar) and training for hypertrophy is based around muscle. So you would pick whatever movements you find effective to work a particular muscle. You still want to be seeing progressive overload as an indicator it’s working, which means you’re getting stronger in that movement.
The other difference would be the avoidance of lifts under say the 4 rep range in most hypertrophy programs, with 5-8 prob being ideal most of the time
silveraw
Level 9 Valued Member
I'm more concerned that this looks like it is on the second story.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Long Interset Rest PeriodsLonger Interset Rest Periods Enhance Muscle Strength and Hypertrophy in Resistance-Trained Men - PubMed
Schoenfeld, BJ, Pope, ZK, Benik, FM, Hester, GM, Sellers, J, Nooner, JL, Schnaiter, JA, Bond-Williams, KE, Carter, AS, Ross, CL, Just, BL, Henselmans, M, and Krieger, JW. Longer interset rest periods enhance muscle strength and hypertrophy in resistance-trained men. J Strength Cond Res 30(7)...
I read Schoenfeld's research on this when it came out.
It will increase Muscle Mass to a degree. However, not to the same extent of...
"The Pump"
Post 23 goes into this.
Other/Mixed - The optimal rep range for hypertrophy is not what you think
isometrics is case in point that it's more about creating muscle tension, and time under tension, than reps. "The Pump" Repetition matter because they increase blood flow to the muscles being worked producing "The Pump". If constantant tension is maintained during the set by not taking any...
www.strongfirst.com
The downside of Short Hypertrophy Rest Period less Strength is gain comparative to the Long Interset Rest Periods.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
The Training Objective
Short Rest Periods produce an increase in Lactate.
Lactate elicits a downstre anabolic effect (Dr. Jeremy Loenneke)
Dr. Jonathan Oliver stated the same in his National Strength and Conditioning presentation at Texas A&M a few year back; Oliver presentation is still available on youtube.
With Long Rest Periods Lactate dissipates. Thus, while is effect at Increasing Muscle Mass, it not as effective.
Training For Strength
Training for Strength is usually for a particular movement. However, it can be use to increase Strength in any movement; providing the right protocol is performed.
With that said, if an individual want to improve a particular lift, optimally that lift should be trained for Technique rather than being performed as a movement to increase Strength.
Increasing Strength is developed with Exercises that have the same Strength Curve and Movement Pattern.
The issue with utilizing a lift as mean of increasing Strength works to a degree. However, as Muscle Fatigue sets in Technique is altered for the worst.
Yes
Progressive OverLoad
This is fundament for Hypertrophy and Maximum Strength Training.
While Progressive Hypertrophy OverLoading increase Strength, it not to the same extent that the Maximum Strength Training Protocol does.
Synergistic Effect
To reiterate, one Strength enhance the other.
Thus, finding a way to incorporate them into a Training Program elicits a greater effect.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
Personally, when it comes to hypertrophy the rest periods should be cued to "feel". If you feel ready to go, there is probably no point in waiting longer. Also probably no point in deliberately chopping them. I tend to go by breathing recovery plus a little extra. Since this is tied to CO2 levels in the blood, is a good indicator you are superficially recovered. This is the prime means of removing H+ ions from buffering lactate. It doesn't reduce lactate, it just means systemic pH is stable enough your breathing doesn't need to be increased any more.
When I use certain strategies like drop sets or rest/pause to extend the set, I can feel how this extends rest period by how much longer it takes for breathing to stabilize. This obviously doesn't imply total recovery, just a good impromptu metric.
When training Cluster Sets for hypertrophy, was able to use sets as low as a single rep of a 2 repmax load but with a 20-30 second rest, for as many as 5 or 6 repeats. This is very reminiscent of Mentzer myo-reps, worked well for strength and hypertrophy. I wouldn't recommend it out of the gate for most folks, but it worked.
All good. FWIW, I don't feel there is a universal truth "best" way to approach this. Am not comfortable asserting anything of the sort. Its amazing that there is still so much about this we don't have a solid handle on.
An Evidence-Based Narrative Review of Mechanisms of Resistance Exercise–Induced Human Skeletal Muscle Hypertrophy
Skeletal muscle plays a critical role in physical function and metabolic health. Muscle is a highly adaptable tissue that responds to resistance exercise (RE; loading) by hypertrophying, or during muscle disuse, RE mitigates muscle loss. Resistance exercise ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
puddleduck
Level 6 Valued Member
I’ll take a look to make sure I’m not wrong, but I believe the lactate theory looked good on mice studies, but later in vivo human studies demonstrated no increase in protein synthesis…
An accurate/balanced pic is probably to say the jury is still out but if I get time today I’ll link to some articles. Think they might be paywalled but I’ll check
puddleduck
Level 6 Valued Member
See if that works as a very accessible summary
puddleduck
Level 6 Valued Member
The pump
The suggestion I’ve read is that the pump is more pronounced in fast twitch fibers, so people with a greater proportion of these experience a greater pump. But that doesn’t mean chasing a the pump leads to greater hypertrophy, as the methods to achieve this typically involve greater fatigue, reduced motor recruitment etc
The suggestion I’ve read is that the pump is more pronounced in fast twitch fibers, so people with a greater proportion of these experience a greater pump. But that doesn’t mean chasing a the pump leads to greater hypertrophy, as the methods to achieve this typically involve greater fatigue, reduced motor recruitment etc
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
I'd find it more convincing if they'd caused some muscle damage per the rodent studies. Also if they'd run the experiment over a time period opposed to a single bout. Lac levels in the muscle weren't much different between groups, nor was intramuscular pH. If it was a threshold effect instead of linear magnitude, this experiment wouldn't reveal it.
Would be very informative if they could work-equate two groups with/without lac elevation above baseline. This is where I come back to isometrics and its relative lack of hypertrophy compared to work equated isotonics. Isometrics has higher % recruitment, for longer absolute TUT (by a huge margin) at lower metabolic cost, it should be the king of hypertrophy if tension is the only factor.
The evidence for lac, generally includes a cascade of knock-on effects up to and including gene expression. Again, I don't claim one way or the other but I do plan my training around certain presumptions. The evidence for this/that/the other is all over the map.
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Jeff Roark
Level 7 Valued Member
All are safe! It’s an insulated panel building! Gets over 100 on most days in the summertime. Sweat box!
Antti
Level 10 Valued Member
I'm inclined to agree.
When we look at the typical overuse injuries from work or such, I'd say it's typically always the reps or time, not the load.
When it comes to acute injuries, the gym is a very safe space among the sports.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
That's what I meant.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Heavy Cluster Set Training
This is usually referred to for Maximum Strength Training as "Rest-Pause Training" (Myo-Reps)
As noted, once failure occurs in a Set, Rest and then perform additional Repetitions.
With Low Repetition Training this appears to be more effective for Maximum Strength Training than Hypertrophy.
Performing it with a Higher Repetition is more effective for Hypertrophy.
Ironically, that is what many lifter unknowing do with Higher Repetition Sets.
In performing a Bench Press for 10 Repetitions, let's say they struggle with the 7th Rep. The lifter will often "Pause and Rest" before attempting the 8th, 9th and 10th Rep to complete the Set of 10.
Cluster Sets For Power
This method is used with the following...
Olympic Lifts
Cluster Set Training is utilized by many Olympic Lifter; Resting Between Repetition in a Set.
Low Repetition Cluster Sets. Dr. Greg Haff determined that Rest Periods of 45 Seconds between Cluster Reps allowed approximately80% of ATP Muscle Restoration.
The Westside Powerlifting Method
The Westside Powerlifting Protocol for "Speed Training" (a misnomer, it is Power Training) is Cluster Set Training. Load of 48-62% of 1 Repetitions Max are used.
Box Squat Reps are 2 Per Cluster. A 60 Second Rest Period is taken, then another 2 Repetition are performed.
Kettlebell Cluster Set Swings
Kettlebell Cluster Set Swing are usually performed EMOM, Every Minute On The Minute.
For Power Load of One-Third body Weight an Higher Performed for Low Repetition are used to increase Power.
The Downside of Hypertrophy Training Alone
The Standard Bodybuilding/Hypertrophy Protocol is the most effective at increasing Muscle Mass.
The downside is it increase Muscle Mass at the expense of a decrease in Maximum Strength and Power, it trained alone.
Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training
Dr. Jonathan Oliver's research determined this method promotes Hypertrophy while maintaining and/or Increasing Strength and Power.
Light to Moderate Load performed with Small Cluster of Repetitions, less than 5 Reps.
Each Repetition need to be Explosive; which innervating and developing the Large Type II Fibers.
Shorter Rest Periods of around 15 Seconds were employed for Hypertrophy.
Longer Rest Periods of approximately 45 Second were determine to optimize Power Development.
Oliver Training Objective
Oliver's research objective on this was to find a method for In Season Athletes in Strength, Power, Speed Sports to be able to maintain them while Increasing Muscle Mass.
Speed and Power Training Training Percentages
First, let's define the Training Percentage that develop them.
1) Speed Training
10-40%, with around 30% the sweet spot of 1 Repetition Max in Traditional Exercise such as Squats, Pressing, Deadlifts, ect.
2) Power Training
48-62% of 1 Repetition Max with Traditional Exercises such as Squats, Pressing, Deadlifts, etc.
The Training Percentage for Olympic Movement is 70-80% of 1 Repetition Max.
The Issue With Many Lifters
Many lifter focus too much on using Heavier Loads. They believe "Heavier is better"; which it isn't.
The key to increasing Speed and Power is perform the movement with Explosive Force; move the Load quickly. Doing so, elicits and develop "Super" Fast IIb/x Muscle Fibers; which does not occur with Heavy Loads.
"Lifting Heavy Weights Makes You Slow"
This is validity to this.
If Heavy Training is solely performed, there is a conversion of the "Super" Fast Type IIb/x Fiber to the slower "Strength" Fast Type IIa Fiber.
The Exception To The Rule
Initially, Novice Lifter will increase Speed and Power on a Maximum Strength Training Program.
However, once that adaptation occurs, continuing to train Maximum Strength will lead to a decrease in Speed and Power.
Take Home Message
"Rest-Pause" Heavy Training and Cluster Set Speed and Power Training are effective.
Each requires a Specific Training Percentage be employed.
The Rest Periods between Cluster Repetitions also need to be taken into consideration.
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