Question 2h swings when frequency drops?

Nacho

Triple-Digit Post Count
In S&S 2.0 it’s recommended to do 2h swing on every other or third session. This has worked well for me with training 5-6 times a week. But as I’m now getting closer to timeless simple, I wonder if I should maybe stick to 1h swings when frequency drops to 3-4 times a week? As one of those sessions is a glygotic test session anyways, heavy one hand swings would be done only 1-2 times a week if still using also 2h swings... Seems very little?
 

Bauer

> 1k Posts
Pavel writes that everything still applies if not stated otherwise, so yes, 33-50% of sessions with 2H. But of course you could follow more S&S 1.0 and only do 2H swings when you are "dragging your tail".
 

Tim Randolph

Triple-Digit Post Count
I am doing most of my S&S work now with the 32 and it has made me appreciate the 2H swing as a serious power exercise rather than just a stopping point to the one handed version. Being really able to let it rip with a heavy bell has been a big part of my progress.

So I imagine when introduce the 40, I will want to keep at least one day with 2H swings. That still leaves 2 sessions to build grip strength with the 1H swing plus the test day. That feels like a good mix but I will know more when I get there.
 

Nacho

Triple-Digit Post Count
I am doing most of my S&S work now with the 32 and it has made me appreciate the 2H swing as a serious power exercise rather than just a stopping point to the one handed version. Being really able to let it rip with a heavy bell has been a big part of my progress.

So I imagine when introduce the 40, I will want to keep at least one day with 2H swings. That still leaves 2 sessions to build grip strength with the 1H swing plus the test day. That feels like a good mix but I will know more when I get there.
I agree! But it makes a difference then if one has 3 or 4 sessions a week. So maybe as a rule of thumb, if you miss the fourth session, miss the 2h swing session... But seems like there is no reason to overcomplicate it.
 

Tjerr

Triple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
I agree! But it makes a difference then if one has 3 or 4 sessions a week. So maybe as a rule of thumb, if you miss the fourth session, miss the 2h swing session... But seems like there is no reason to overcomplicate it.
Not if you do every fourth training. If you do three sessions a week, it would be 1h, 1h, 1h, next week, 2h, 1h, 1h, next week 1h, 2h, 1h.

Edit:
With my example you will have 5 [2h sessions] on a total of 16 sessions (4 week block).
 

Tim Randolph

Triple-Digit Post Count
I agree! But it makes a difference then if one has 3 or 4 sessions a week
Not if you do every fourth training.
Or if you really value the 2H swing for power development or grip recovery then you could plan on doing those on the second session every week. You would still be within the “every second or third” direction. Of course listening to your body is probably the best way to go, but I like to have some structure to audible around.
 

masa

> 4k Posts
I don’t do two-arm swings at all anymore due to scoliosis and being tall. Different strokes to different folks.
 

Nacho

Triple-Digit Post Count
Just a thought, is there anything wrong with continuing with just timeless training 3-4 times a week and tackle the simple challenge later if I feel like it? I know at least some people have used this approach... Sort of putting more focus on reaching timeless solid than simple challenge... ? That would also keep the training as simple as possible.
 

Papa Georgio

More than 300 posts
Just a thought, is there anything wrong with continuing with just timeless training 3-4 times a week and tackle the simple challenge later if I feel like it? I know at least some people have used this approach... Sort of putting more focus on reaching timeless solid than simple challenge... ? That would also keep the training as simple as possible.
You are free to run the program how ever you would like, and I think you will be able to gain strength in doing so, but I think you'd give up a lot of the benefits of this program.

My impression is that S&S was supposed to be "Strength first", but also be rounded enough to qualify as GPP. In the first phase of S&S, when you are working on building strength & proficiency in the exercises, Pavel suggests that you do some "Jolt" activity a couple times a month. I'm assuming this is to touch on your glycolytic & aerobic systems using other activities. No timed test to avoid adding speed to dysfunction. Pavel assumes by timeless simple that you've reached a level of proficiency where you can push the density with timed tests to start getting into the other energy systems. I think the demonization of glycolytic training is unfounded. You need to do it, just not at the intensity & frequency to derail strength training. When done in the right proportions, glycolytic & aerobic train can synergistically help your strength.

I think Pavel's recommendations in 2.0 are very generous as far as limiting glycolytic training. When I was doing S&S, pre-2.0, I would use a timed test session with a lighter bell as my "light" day. It was my favorite training day. It was over quick, and it gave me an energy boost the rest of the day. I would usually have pretty productive training on the following day. It would be to your benefit to start these weekly glyco sessions as soon as possible (after you hit timeless simple). It's not gonna get any easier when the bells are heavier, I'd start now if you can.

Good Luck!
 

Nacho

Triple-Digit Post Count
You are free to run the program how ever you would like, and I think you will be able to gain strength in doing so, but I think you'd give up a lot of the benefits of this program.

My impression is that S&S was supposed to be "Strength first", but also be rounded enough to qualify as GPP. In the first phase of S&S, when you are working on building strength & proficiency in the exercises, Pavel suggests that you do some "Jolt" activity a couple times a month. I'm assuming this is to touch on your glycolytic & aerobic systems using other activities. No timed test to avoid adding speed to dysfunction. Pavel assumes by timeless simple that you've reached a level of proficiency where you can push the density with timed tests to start getting into the other energy systems. I think the demonization of glycolytic training is unfounded. You need to do it, just not at the intensity & frequency to derail strength training. When done in the right proportions, glycolytic & aerobic train can synergistically help your strength.

I think Pavel's recommendations in 2.0 are very generous as far as limiting glycolytic training. When I was doing S&S, pre-2.0, I would use a timed test session with a lighter bell as my "light" day. It was my favorite training day. It was over quick, and it gave me an energy boost the rest of the day. I would usually have pretty productive training on the following day. It would be to your benefit to start these weekly glyco sessions as soon as possible (after you hit timeless simple). It's not gonna get any easier when the bells are heavier, I'd start now if you can.

Good Luck!
Thanks for your answer and great explanation.
 

Tim Randolph

Triple-Digit Post Count
My impression is that S&S was supposed to be "Strength first", but also be rounded enough to qualify as GPP
Great observation and this very much lines up with a recent experience Of mine. I am most of the way to timeless simple, but was away from home and the biggest bell I had access to was 24K. For a "jolt" I decided to do the the timed test with that bell and was amazed how easy it was. The whole thing took me only 13 minutes and I felt so good at the end that I did another half-dozen TGUs. And this was with having done no glycolytic training for months.

The lesson I took from this is how important base strength is to GPP. "Strong First" and all, even if it has taken me years to get how deep that is. My current inclination is to get fairly far along into timeless solid before I start to emphasize the weekly testing.
 
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Nacho

Triple-Digit Post Count
Just a thought, is there anything wrong with continuing with just timeless training 3-4 times a week and tackle the simple challenge later if I feel like it? I know at least some people have used this approach... Sort of putting more focus on reaching timeless solid than simple challenge... ? That would also keep the training as simple as possible.
If I may expand just a little what my thoughts and concerns are. In the book there is a schedule that has you do the glycolytic training on friday and then the weekend is off. Obviously there is nothing special about friday so you could choose whatever day, but is there a reason behind two rest days after the glycolytic day? I play golf in the summer and pool billiard during winter. I have a competition usually on weekends and I would obviously rather not "drag my tail" then. So I`m trying to figure out the best way to keep my training flexible and simple to support my hobbies. It`s of course easy to test and see how I feel, but what is the theory? Should I be better prepared to play on saturday Morning if I did timeless session on friday or a glygolytic session? Or should it matter at all?
 

Bauer

> 1k Posts
If I may expand just a little what my thoughts and concerns are. In the book there is a schedule that has you do the glycolytic training on friday and then the weekend is off. Obviously there is nothing special about friday so you could choose whatever day, but is there a reason behind two rest days after the glycolytic day? I play golf in the summer and pool billiard during winter. I have a competition usually on weekends and I would obviously rather not "drag my tail" then. So I`m trying to figure out the best way to keep my training flexible and simple to support my hobbies. It`s of course easy to test and see how I feel, but what is the theory? Should I be better prepared to play on saturday Morning if I did timeless session on friday or a glygolytic session? Or should it matter at all?
I don't have an answer for you. Maybe you could try different variations for a month? Another option would be to do a glycolitic session every 5th session, breaking the weekly structure. This way you would be more in line with the 80% base, 20% intense training of pro athletes--and you would include more variability.
 

Tim Randolph

Triple-Digit Post Count
In the book there is a schedule that has you do the glycolytic training on friday and then the weekend is off.
I hadn’t noticed that detail but still I think you are overthinking it. In 2.0, Pavel goes to great lengths to make sure that the timed sessions won’t burn us out

“Alternate weeks of moderate and hard efforts: more or less rest between sets. Skip this type of training on weeks when you are deloading or you simply had a hard week.”

— Kettlebell Simple & Sinister: Revised and Updated Edition by Pavel Tsatsouline
So not ever week is all-out. Rest periods are compressed over time rather than all at once. You are using a weight one size down. And the instruction is to go 80% effort rather than the standard 90. Plus If the session is getting the better of you then it’s time to bail.

So if Friday’s work for your schedule, I would at least give it a shot.
 

Papa Georgio

More than 300 posts
If I may expand just a little what my thoughts and concerns are. In the book there is a schedule that has you do the glycolytic training on friday and then the weekend is off. Obviously there is nothing special about friday so you could choose whatever day, but is there a reason behind two rest days after the glycolytic day? I play golf in the summer and pool billiard during winter. I have a competition usually on weekends and I would obviously rather not "drag my tail" then. So I`m trying to figure out the best way to keep my training flexible and simple to support my hobbies. It`s of course easy to test and see how I feel, but what is the theory? Should I be better prepared to play on saturday Morning if I did timeless session on friday or a glygolytic session? Or should it matter at all?
This has been my experience:

Timed test at working weight: took about 90-95% RPE, felt wore out rest of day. Hard to work out (but usually still did) the next day.

Timed test at lighter bell (~8kg less than working weight): took about 70-75% RPE. Felt energized rest of day, Felt strong the next day.

I usually tried to schedule my test with working weights on Monday so I could have a day of rest before, so I could be as fresh as possible. Light test days didn't matter. This was all done in the wild-west days of version 1.0 Like I said, Pavel was very generous by specifying a lighter bell for test days in version 2.0
 

Kettlebelephant

> 1k Posts
If I may expand just a little what my thoughts and concerns are. In the book there is a schedule that has you do the glycolytic training on friday and then the weekend is off. Obviously there is nothing special about friday so you could choose whatever day, but is there a reason behind two rest days after the glycolytic day? I play golf in the summer and pool billiard during winter. I have a competition usually on weekends and I would obviously rather not "drag my tail" then. So I`m trying to figure out the best way to keep my training flexible and simple to support my hobbies. It`s of course easy to test and see how I feel, but what is the theory? Should I be better prepared to play on saturday Morning if I did timeless session on friday or a glygolytic session? Or should it matter at all?
Don't worry that much :) You probably even feel better on saturday. As @Papa Georgio mentioned glycolictic sessions have good sideeffects, just don't overdo it in terms of frequency.
When I was doing S&S (pre 2.0) I instinctively did a hard glycolictic session on fridays and always felt energized on saturdays.
 
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