Kettlebell A little confusion about A+A

[CMHoward]

I've been doing S&S for years and Q&D more recently. I typically change routines about every 6-7 weeks, alternating S&S standard, then S&S Snatch...then doing the same for Q&D, all at 3xs per week. S&S Timed Simple is barely a moderate challenge anymore. I do a pull-up, dip, press-up, pistol circuit routine on off days. No problems, I love both but would like to investigate another training routine to phase in as, to be honest, a little boredom has entered the picture.

So...trying to bare-bones an A+A routine, I've been doing a snatch routine where I set a timer and on each minute I do 5 very powerful snatches with one arm. At the minute I do the same for the other arm and continue until I've done 10 sets (50 total snatches). Is this the idea behind the A+A? It seems to be a bit something...short, not much work, dare I say "easy"? I've graduated if you will to the 32kg KB for the snatches and even so...50 reps total leaves me feeling wanting.

Is this the A+A protocol? Is there something in easy, layman's terms to add to it? Is it to be considered just a portion of a greater workout? I've set a 45 minute limit on all workouts, so I have time left...about 15 minutes after a 5 minute warm-up and 5 minute cooldown.

If this is all there is to it then great! I'm fine with that, but I really don't want to be cheating myself since I'm already dressed and ready to dance....

 

[Steve Freides]

It's a fine protocol, but if you look through the training logs of those who train this way, you'll find sessions of up to an hour in length. I'd start aiming at 20 minutes from your current 10, and then upwards from there.

Put another way, it's heavier, and with much more complete rests, and eventually it can be a more than standard amount of work because the extra rest and lack of much glycolysis will mean you can learn to tolerate more work. But the first step would be to work up to your 100 or 200 snatches.

-S-

 

[Anna C]

Agree with Steve

Maybe you can "borrow some time" and do an hour one day, and then 30 minutes another, if you want to keep your overall workout time the same.

Also, many A+A practitioners like to get to where they need very little in the way of warm-up. Personally I like at least a quick mobility and lighter kettlebell for a few reps before getting going with the heavier work myself, but it's been done by others to just jump right in. It might agree with you.

 

[Sean M]

As @Steve Freides said, the A+A pioneers repeat heavy snatch sets for a good while (40-60+ minutes).

There is a famed “hundo” club for those who have completed 100 repeats (of 5), which takes at least an hour.

 

[Starlord]

I've been beaten to the point my many knowledgeable members already.

My typical structure for A+A work is:
Monday 20mins
Tuesday 40mins
Thursday 30mins
Friday 60mins

My favourite movements to do this with is the KB snatch 5 reps each hand and bag over shoulder 2 reps each shoulder.

I intend on trying this out with double kb clean & jerk in the future but that will probably be next year when my goals shift back towards endurance while attempting to maintain as much strength as possible.

 

[John K]

I've been doing S&S for years and Q&D more recently. I typically change routines about every 6-7 weeks, alternating S&S standard, then S&S Snatch...then doing the same for Q&D, all at 3xs per week. S&S Timed Simple is barely a moderate challenge anymore. I do a pull-up, dip, press-up, pistol circuit routine on off days. No problems, I love both but would like to investigate another training routine to phase in as, to be honest, a little boredom has entered the picture.

So...trying to bare-bones an A+A routine, I've been doing a snatch routine where I set a timer and on each minute I do 5 very powerful snatches with one arm. At the minute I do the same for the other arm and continue until I've done 10 sets (50 total snatches). Is this the idea behind the A+A? It seems to be a bit something...short, not much work, dare I say "easy"? I've graduated if you will to the 32kg KB for the snatches and even so...50 reps total leaves me feeling wanting.

Is this the A+A protocol? Is there something in easy, layman's terms to add to it? Is it to be considered just a portion of a greater workout? I've set a 45 minute limit on all workouts, so I have time left...about 15 minutes after a 5 minute warm-up and 5 minute cooldown.

If this is all there is to it then great! I'm fine with that, but I really don't want to be cheating myself since I'm already dressed and ready to dance....

If you read this article by Al Ciampa, he suggests averaging 30 sets per session (and he does emphasize average), but he does not say it should be OTM, but that you should rest as long as necessary to maintain high power output. It's a 4 year old article and I can't say one way or another if he has changed his thoughts since. But I've used it as a guide when I've pursued A&A.

 

[WxHerk]

I have done a lot of A&A over the past few years. I like to hit an hour or a bit more. Repeats of 5 snatches with the 32kg bell. I’m usually around 50 repeats, so 250 or so snatches, starting my next repeat when my heart rate drops below 110. I’ve done this on consecutive days a couple or three times but that was after I’d become very acclimated. No special reason but why ask a question when I can try it out on myself?

 

[Starlord]

If you read this article by Al Ciampa, he suggests averaging 30 sets per session (and he does emphasize average), but he does not say it should be OTM, but that you should rest as long as necessary to maintain high power output. It's a 4 year old article and I can't say one way or another if he has changed his thoughts since. But I've used it as a guide when I've pursued A&A.

This is the method I use when I program it for for others, for myself or when I am advocating it.

As far as I'm aware this is still the premise of A+A style training.

 

[Adachi]

Is this the A+A protocol?

The interval timing is right for A+A

I've set a 45 minute limit on all workouts, so I have time left...about 15 minutes after a 5 minute warm-up and 5 minute cooldown.

Try to luxuriate in the longest sessions you can get. Consider multiple sessions in a day as an option if your schedule allows it

the first step would be to work up to your 100 or 200 snatches

An importantly unique property of this training is building up huge volume at lower biologic costs.

And maybe, wading into higher volumes you might wave the load and length of session sometimes.

You're on the right track for sure. Just make sure you're getting some cardio in. The aerobic base will provide a shock absorber for work capacity, per @Harald Motz . It will help you get even more out of your snatching practice over the weeks and months.

 

[BillSteamshovel]

If you read this article by Al Ciampa, he suggests averaging 30 sets per session (and he does emphasize average), but he does not say it should be OTM, but that you should rest as long as necessary to maintain high power output. It's a 4 year old article and I can't say one way or another if he has changed his thoughts since. But I've used it as a guide when I've pursued A&A.

@John K .......... Thanks for the link. For me that is the BEST explanation of A&A ever, right at top of the very first page.

 

[Ryan T]

If you read this article by Al Ciampa, he suggests averaging 30 sets per session (and he does emphasize average), but he does not say it should be OTM, but that you should rest as long as necessary to maintain high power output. It's a 4 year old article and I can't say one way or another if he has changed his thoughts since. But I've used it as a guide when I've pursued A&A.

His views have not changed.

@CMHoward Al's LBJ protocols are structured by NR (Number of Repeats) and intended for heavy snatching however you can apply to heavy 2hsw and adjust the reps per repeat.

Generally speaking, the talk test and a sense of calm is a good cue to begin the next repeat. I'd suggest spending some time without a an interval timer. Build that sense for yourself. If you've got a limited amount of time, then perhaps set a total time limit. You can only benefit from your rest. Harald Motz has a habit of sitting down between repeats.

As @Adachi said, you can break it up into chunks. Certainly don't neglect aerobic base building either. You will short change your efforts if you do.

 

[Bauer]

I've been doing S&S for years and Q&D more recently. I typically change routines about every 6-7 weeks, alternating S&S standard, then S&S Snatch...then doing the same for Q&D, all at 3xs per week. S&S Timed Simple is barely a moderate challenge anymore. I do a pull-up, dip, press-up, pistol circuit routine on off days. No problems, I love both but would like to investigate another training routine to phase in as, to be honest, a little boredom has entered the picture.

So...trying to bare-bones an A+A routine, I've been doing a snatch routine where I set a timer and on each minute I do 5 very powerful snatches with one arm. At the minute I do the same for the other arm and continue until I've done 10 sets (50 total snatches). Is this the idea behind the A+A? It seems to be a bit something...short, not much work, dare I say "easy"? I've graduated if you will to the 32kg KB for the snatches and even so...50 reps total leaves me feeling wanting.

Is this the A+A protocol? Is there something in easy, layman's terms to add to it? Is it to be considered just a portion of a greater workout? I've set a 45 minute limit on all workouts, so I have time left...about 15 minutes after a 5 minute warm-up and 5 minute cooldown.

If this is all there is to it then great! I'm fine with that, but I really don't want to be cheating myself since I'm already dressed and ready to dance....

What has been described in this thread is A+A according to Al Ciampa.

In my mind, Al Ciampa is trying to let volume do the work, with relatively complete rest between repeats. A+A is then the main focus of the session.

As far as I can see, Pavel has a different style of A+A programming, usually with shorter sessions, less volume and shorter rest periods.

I think Pavel favors an approach where you are depleting your energy systems a bit quicker, probably pulling the trigger on a few biochemical adaptations. This could mean (a) working in a timed fashion (swings in the SF-KB plans), (b) timed sets + escalating density (LCCJ in the SF-KB plans) or (c) talk test based rest with increasing density (S&S, and as far as I know also some A+A plans at the KB201 courses). This part of an older article could be an example:

Cranking tension up and down in a blink of an eye is not an easy skill to acquire. Be patient. It might turn out that to keep your heart rate from exceeding the “180 minus age” ceiling after a set of 10 swings, you are forced to use a very light kettlebell.

If this is the case, use a favorite StrongFirst tactic of cutting the reps and upping the sets: instead of 10×10, do 20 sets of 5 reps. (...)

You will have an easier time keeping your session aerobic while using a heavier weight. This format will subtly change the benefits—more power gains, a little less muscle hypertrophy, and a greater ability to quickly relax your muscles after contractions. When ready, move up to 14 sets of 7 reps (98 total), and eventually 10×10.

[Please note that the HR-minus-age thing is AFAIK outdated. I would read it as "not recovering properly between sets".]

When combined with a different exercise I believe that Pavel favors shorter A+A sessions, probably around 60-100 reps in 10-20 minutes (like swings in S&S or the SF-KB plan). You follow this work with an upper body grind like a press or TGUs. As a standalone practice Pavel seems to embrace longer sessions too, like 20-60 minutes. In one of the latest newsletter editions he mentions that grinds can work in A+A fashion too, although only yielding about half of the energy system adaptations. In that way ROP ladders (with generous rest) on top of a short ballistic A+A session could be considered a version of A+A (or at least AGT).

Keep in mind that I have not attended StrongEndurance and am not "inner circle StrongFirst". This is just based on my observations of Pavels latest plans, articles, etc.
--

To summarize:
"Classic A+A". Al Ciampa style: Sets of 5 for 20 to 60 minutes with 60-120 seconds of rest (relatively complete rest)
Pavel Style A+A: Talk test based sets of 5-10 but either timed or with increased density. Possibly less volume but followed by a low-rep grind

 

[Ryan T]

What has been described in this thread is A+A according to Al Ciampa.

In my mind, Al Ciampa is trying to let volume do the work, with relatively complete rest between repeats. A+A is then the main focus of the session.

As far as I can see, Pavel has a different style of A+A programming, usually with shorter sessions, less volume and shorter rest periods.

I think Pavel favors an approach where you are depleting your energy systems a bit quicker, probably pulling the trigger on a few biochemical adaptations. This could mean (a) working in a timed fashion (swings in the SF-KB plans), (b) timed sets + escalating density (LCCJ in the SF-KB plans) or (c) talk test based rest with increasing density (S&S, and as far as I know also some A+A plans at the KB201 courses). This part of an older article could be an example:


[Please note that the HR-minus-age thing is AFAIK outdated. I would read it as "not recovering properly between sets".]

When combined with a different exercise I believe that Pavel favors shorter A+A sessions, probably around 60-100 reps in 10-20 minutes (like swings in S&S or the SF-KB plan). You follow this work with an upper body grind like a press or TGUs. As a standalone practice Pavel seems to embrace longer sessions too, like 20-60 minutes. In one of the latest newsletter editions he mentions that grinds can work in A+A fashion too, although only yielding about half of the energy system adaptations. In that way ROP ladders (with generous rest) on top of a short ballistic A+A session could be considered a version of A+A (or at least AGT).

Keep in mind that I have not attended StrongEndurance and am not "inner circle StrongFirst". This is just based on my observations of Pavels latest plans, articles, etc.
--

To summarize:
"Classic A+A". Al Ciampa style: Sets of 5 for 20 to 60 minutes with 60-120 seconds of rest (relatively complete rest)
Pavel Style A+A: Talk test based sets of 5-10 but either timed or with increased density. Possibly less volume but followed by a low-rep grind

Good breakdown, and anyone will be successful with both variations. The way I see it, there’s a couple other fine points:

• Weight selection
• Pavel does most of the thinking for you with a programmatic approach, and although Al has several A+A templates (such as Lumber Jack), they favor a bit more protocol. The principles are very similar.

Something I noticed from the cadre at Be Well and Strong, is many have been punching the clock with A+A templates with aerobic base building and continuously make gains across all domains of fitness, strength, power, body comp (provided you don’t eat like a jerk), and endurance. It’s not sexy, but it works and is highly sustainable. Intuitively, you work in other things based on interests and goals (if you want). Many might do some low volume grinds like cluster sets of presses or another grind at the end, but for those that do A+A, it remains the main dish.

EDIT: By protocol, I mean you have guidelines that allow you, over time, to learn how to tailor your training and application of A+A to works best for you.

 

[Pete L]

What has been described in this thread is A+A according to Al Ciampa.

In my mind, Al Ciampa is trying to let volume do the work, with relatively complete rest between repeats. A+A is then the main focus of the session.

As far as I can see, Pavel has a different style of A+A programming, usually with shorter sessions, less volume and shorter rest periods.

I think Pavel favors an approach where you are depleting your energy systems a bit quicker, probably pulling the trigger on a few biochemical adaptations. This could mean (a) working in a timed fashion (swings in the SF-KB plans), (b) timed sets + escalating density (LCCJ in the SF-KB plans) or (c) talk test based rest with increasing density (S&S, and as far as I know also some A+A plans at the KB201 courses). This part of an older article could be an example:


[Please note that the HR-minus-age thing is AFAIK outdated. I would read it as "not recovering properly between sets".]

When combined with a different exercise I believe that Pavel favors shorter A+A sessions, probably around 60-100 reps in 10-20 minutes (like swings in S&S or the SF-KB plan). You follow this work with an upper body grind like a press or TGUs. As a standalone practice Pavel seems to embrace longer sessions too, like 20-60 minutes. In one of the latest newsletter editions he mentions that grinds can work in A+A fashion too, although only yielding about half of the energy system adaptations. In that way ROP ladders (with generous rest) on top of a short ballistic A+A session could be considered a version of A+A (or at least AGT).

Keep in mind that I have not attended StrongEndurance and am not "inner circle StrongFirst". This is just based on my observations of Pavels latest plans, articles, etc.
--

To summarize:
"Classic A+A". Al Ciampa style: Sets of 5 for 20 to 60 minutes with 60-120 seconds of rest (relatively complete rest)
Pavel Style A+A: Talk test based sets of 5-10 but either timed or with increased density. Possibly less volume but followed by a low-rep grind

If I could like this "twice", I'd have probably clicked "like" again...

 

[WxHerk]

Something I noticed from the cadre at Be Well and Strong, is many have been punching the clock with A+A templates with aerobic base building and continuously make gains across all domains of fitness, strength, power, body comp (provided you don’t eat like a jerk), and endurance. It’s not sexy, but it works and is highly sustainable. Intuitively, you work in other things based on interests and goals (if you want). Many might do some low volume grinds like cluster sets of presses or another grind at the end, but for those that do A+A, it remains the main dish.

Abso-darn-lutely!! This was my exact experience from ~18 months of A&A. Everything got better and nothing “dropped off.” After no serious pressing for ~2 years I ran Geoff Neupert’s Giant series Clean & Press program with double 32kg bells. The Giant series calls for multiple sets of up to 9 reps, A&A absolutely set me up for success, something I did not expect at 57. I’m now doing something extremely similar to /stolen from PTtP’s Russian Bear but still sneak in an A&A session since heavy snatching is my “ice cream.”

 

[Ryan T]

Abso-darn-lutely!! This was my exact experience from ~18 months of A&A. Everything got better and nothing “dropped off.” After no serious pressing for ~2 years I ran Geoff Neupert’s Giant series Clean & Press program with double 32kg bells. The Giant series calls for multiple sets of up to 9 reps, A&A absolutely set me up for success, something I did not expect at 57. I’m now doing something extremely similar to /stolen from PTtP’s Russian Bear but still sneak in an A&A session since heavy snatching is my “ice cream.”

Ice cream is pretty tasty…

 

[CMHoward]

Thank you everyone! A lot of information there.
I'm thinking just extending the training to a full 45 mins, scratch the warm up and test the talk test with an interval timer and see how they coincide for me. I have a tendency to get distracted...
On a side note: Warrior Conditioning V02Max training worthy? No particular event coming up, but just to replace running...I hate running.

 

[Bauer]

On a side note: Warrior Conditioning V02Max training worthy? No particular event coming up, but just to replace running...I hate running

No. Kenneth Jay is a actually huge proponent of proper endurance training, especially on the rower.

If you want to do it with snatching, you could try plan 060 from StrongEndurance. There are a few hints here:

Strong Endurance - Plan 060

I started 060 a couple of weeks ago—it's great. I can tell that this type of plan is what's been missing from my training, and I intend to stay on it all the way through! One small difficulty I find is in using the talk test, as there's hardly enough time to say the pledge of allegiance in...

www.strongfirst.com

You could try this StrongEndurance step up plan, for example 2x per week.

“Step Up” Your Adventure Training | StrongFirst

Do you like good food? I mean really good food? I love great food! Have you ever had an epic meal that was so good you could recall exactly when and where it was, even years later? The best meal I have had in years was during my visit to Italy with my comrades from StrongFirst™ Germany, when...

www.strongfirst.com

And add in the Kettlebell mile (and/or 1 rucking session):

The Kettlebell Mile | StrongFirst

The Kettlebell Mile is the product of a two-decade long search for a way to simultaneously train strength and aerobic capacity. It seems so obvious now, but the best ideas are seen as such only in retrospect. I had much learning and tinkering to do first but finally, the science and my...

www.strongfirst.com

Take Your Kettlebell for a Walk | StrongFirst

Strength and endurance are not normally associated with one another when developing training protocols. A strength athlete is thought of as someone who can lift heavy weights in a gym, while an endurance athlete is known for a high aerobic capacity. If you’ve read the StrongFirst article “The...

www.strongfirst.com

Or, something that I like to do: I bike to work and take small detours so that I accumulate 20-45 minutes of biking daily, for me around 100-120 BPM HR which is good enough to count for me.

Or maybe just get comfortable with one of the classic endurance training modalities: Running, biking, rowing, even the cross-trainer...