Other/Mixed Alternatives for A+A?

[the hansenator]

Can you get the benefits of A+A workouts without kettlebells? Like if you have someone who's unable to use kettlebells and would like to try an alternative format like bodyweight or dumbells or bipedal locomotion or something?

 

[Kettlebelephant]

All kinds of sprints - sprints, hill sprints, prowler pushes, sled drags etc.
20-40 repeats of 5-10sec sprints will do the same to your cardiovascular system as snatches or swings.

 

[Anna C]

I was travelling week before last, and my hotel gym had dumbbells but no kettlebells. I did some C&J sets that felt like A+A to me. So I think that could work.

I also did thrusters, and squats, and deadlifts... these felt more like grinds... not so much A+A.

Tried dumbbell snatches, worked OK, but didn't feel as hard/fast/explosive as a kettlebell snatch. So overall, dumbbells not as good for A+A, in my opinion (might be biased )

As for bodyweight - exercises that use the fastest twitch muscle fiber in a hard, explosive, quick set... hmmm... Sets of 5 clapping push-ups, maybe? But needs to be something you can sustain for quite some time to get A+A endurance benefits.

20-40 repeats of 5-10sec sprints will do the same to your cardiovascular system as snatches or swings.

True, but A+A is more about energy systems, not just he cardiovascular system. Sprints are probably pretty close though, if they are REALLY hard/fast/short (alactic) with plenty of recovery between them (aerobic).

 

[conor78]

With M Thai class I've been experimenting with 10 second maximal power striking on the heavy bag then 30 seconds shadow Box, fast loose. Up to 15 sets now.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

True, but A+A is more about energy systems, not just he cardiovascular system. Sprints are probably pretty close though, if they are REALLY hard/fast/short (alactic) with plenty of recovery between them (aerobic).

True, I used "cardiovascular system" synonymously with energy system, metabolic pathways or whatever you want to call it.

 

[Oscar]

How about Olympic lifts? For instance, repeats of 2 power snatches, or 2 power cleans. Would that work?

 

[the hansenator]

All kinds of sprints - sprints, hill sprints, prowler pushes, sled drags etc.
20-40 repeats of 5-10sec sprints will do the same to your cardiovascular system as snatches or swings.

Hill sprints would be perfect if that would work but it might take a while to build up to 20-40 repeats. How would that be programmed, similar parameters to the swings in S&S?

The reason I ask is because my back is still leery of heavy or ballistic exercises. I've been working some bridges/goblet-squats/kb-deads and am making (very) slow progress but am not at a point where I can go heavy or fast yet. Hill sprints seem fine and I wouldn't mind having an excuse to work them while the weather is still warm. I could use some advice on programming it though.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

Hill sprints would be perfect if that would work but it might take a while to build up to 20-40 repeats. How would that be programmed, similar parameters to the swings in S&S?

Look up the threads about A+A.
~10secs of whole body explosive work followed by aerobic recovery (~1-2min rest). That's one repeat.

Sprints (and I mean true sprints, like the 100m and not some kind of fast jog like the 400 or 800m) are a whole body movement and absolutely explosive. They are totally alactic - when people try to explain the metabolic pathways, a lot of times they use the 100m as an example or pure alactic work.
Taking all of this into account I wouldn't know why sprints (hill sprints in this case) shouldn't work.

Sprint up that hill with everything you've got for 7-8sec then rest for about 90sec and go again. Stop when you feel that your sprints lose explosiveness/your speed slowing down during the sprints.
That's how I would do it.

 

[offwidth]

Sprints (and I mean true sprints, like the 100m and not some kind of fast jog like the 400 or 800m) are a whole body movement and absolutely explosive

@Kettlebelephant is right on the mark here.
I think many people don't really understand what a true hill sprint is...
They aren't for the faint of heart...

 

[pet']

Hello,

+1 @Kettlebelephant 's protocol. Related to the move, what about burpees ? This is pretty full body and explosive, does not require lots of space so it can even be done in an hotel bedroom.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Anna C]

Sprint up that hill with everything you've got for 7-8sec then rest for about 90sec and go again. Stop when you feel that your sprints lose explosiveness/your speed slowing down during the sprints.
That's how I would do it.

I can sprint... but I don't sprint often. So if I was going to do this I would do it for maybe 5-8 repeats, to start. Even then, I might expect some sore muscles. Doing it 20, 30, or 40 times initially might be a recipe for disaster. I know you didn't suggest that; I'm just pointing it out for anyone who might want to try it for A+A alternatives.

Even building up to it slowly, or for someone who sprints often, I'm not sure you could build up the volume that makes up a good A+A session. So, you would be doing sprint intervals, which is definitely good for some things, but not necessarily accomplishing what A+A does, IMO.

 

[Anna C]

what about burpees

I feel like there's not enough of a strength/power component to burpees. My guess is they rely on a mix of fiber types and are probably glycolytic. (sorry, no science to back that up... just my guess). Good exercise if done with good form, and can be good for conditioning... but not the best for A+A.

 

[Anna C]

How about Olympic lifts? For instance, repeats of 2 power snatches, or 2 power cleans. Would that work?

I think so, if done explosively and at an appropriate weight. But they do seem a bit more risky to continue doing when fatigued. When I snatch a heavy kettlebell, I can still do a good snatch when I'm slightly fatigued... I wouldn't want to do a barbell snatch or power clean if I was at all iffy.

 

[pet']

Hello,

I feel like there's not enough of a strength/power component to burpees.

I admit it does not require lots of strength and mainly focuses on simple conditioning, as you mention it.

For a while, I try a version of the "strength aerobics" (Strength Aerobics: A Powerful Alternative to HIIT)
I went for 2-3 reps of pistols side, then a break, then 2-3 OAP each, then a break, and so on. This is the closest thing I did related to conditioning & strength at the same time. However, there is no fast twitch here

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Anna C]

2-3 reps of pistols side, then a break, then 2-3 OAP each, then a break, and so on

That actually sounds like a pretty good A+A alternative! The only obstacle is being able to do them....

 

[pet']

Hello,

Maybe it can be possible to adapt it:
> Using the right number of reps. Choosing a number we can sustain for 30 / 40 minutes
> Using the proper variation (neither too easy, neither too difficult)

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Anna C]

Maybe it can be possible to adapt it:
> Using the right number of reps. Choosing a number we can sustain for 30 / 40 minutes
> Using the proper variation (neither too easy, neither too difficult)

Yes, possibly... but in the same way that one won't really get the benefits of A+A snatches until they've worked up to a competent heavy snatch, there is probably a minimum progression/variation for results.

As for the number of reps, the work set needs to be about the right time. Alactic capacity is something like 12 seconds, so it's whatever you can do in that short fast work interval. Then recover with active rest between.

As you described sounds about right, but I would say: "2-3 reps of pistols right side, then a break, then 2-3 reps of pistols left side, then a break, then 2-3 OAP right side, then a break, then 2-3 OAP left side, then a break", with each break being about a minute. Then repeat the cycle 4 - 9 more times" for a total of 20 - 40 alactic repeats.

Personally I could see working up to the pistols without too much difficulty, but the OAPs I would definitely need assistance or do elevated. Also the pistol seems to be fine when done explosively or as a grind, but the OAP always seems to be a grind if done strictly and without assistance. I'm not sure if doing a OAP with assistance or elevated, and doing faster or more explosively, is a good way to train it. Well... maybe I will try it for SFB training when the time comes!

Sanity check, @aciampa - care to weigh in on the A+A alternatives discussion?

 

[Oscar]

Al, you better write that book fast before we drive you crazy with questions... I think there are 3 active A+A threads at the moment

 

[pet']

Hello,

As you described sounds about right, but I would say: "2-3 reps of pistols right side, then a break, then 2-3 reps of pistols left side, then a break, then 2-3 OAP right side, then a break, then 2-3 OAP left side, then a break", with each break being about a minute. Then repeat the cycle 4 - 9 more times" for a total of 20 - 40 alactic repeats.

Regardless the number of reps (2 or 3), I put below 12 seconds of effort, and 60s rest.


Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Kettlebelephant]

Sprint up that hill with everything you've got for 7-8sec then rest for about 90sec and go again. Stop when you feel that your sprints lose explosiveness/your speed slowing down during the sprints.
That's how I would do it.

I quote my own post here instead of editing the original.
I did a test of this today and have to say 4-5sec of work feels much better than 7-8sec.
I can't say why, but all out sprinting for almost 10sec is not repeatable often, at least for me.
5sec on the other hand is something I could manage for 20 repeats right away.
It makes sense to me, because during swings or snatches you have the relaxation part. So during a set of 5, which takes ~10sec, you still get 4-5sec of rest during the float and/or lockout. With sprints you don't have that, they are 100% go all the time.

Even building up to it slowly, or for someone who sprints often, I'm not sure you could build up the volume that makes up a good A+A session. So, you would be doing sprint intervals, which is definitely good for some things, but not necessarily accomplishing what A+A does, IMO.

@Anna C I can imagine this. Sprints feel much, much harder when compared to swings or snatches.
If you can snatch use the snatch. If your snatch technique isn't up to it use the swing. Only if you can't swing either go for sprints. That would be my recommendation.
The KB ballistics are just so unique in many ways, that you can't really replicate them with other things.