Kettlebell Autoregulation and overdoing it

[Bauer]

Whenever I am doing autoregulated sessions, I have trouble finding the right time to stop my session.

I often feel great during a session and then feel fatigued, just a few hours later.

This was regularly the case when I started S&S a couple of years back, and now, shortly after having had Covid for the 2nd time, I am experiencing this phenomenon again.

Today I did a E30 session of KBSF swings, and adhered to the talk test, RPE, and power output. I could push it to 180 reps. However, for the last few minutes my legs felt a bit tired (but no burn) and I didn't feel like going for the next set. But as I could pass the tests mentioned above, I kept on going. Just three hours later I feel spent and a bit sore in my forearms. So I wonder whether I overdid it.

Does anyone have trouble with autoregulation and gauging within-session and after-session recovery?

 

[Spartan Agoge]

Yes, I have a huge problem with autoregulation.

I always end up overtraining. Then I take a step back, I deload and I start training properly. For about 3 weeks. Then I feel rested and my mind starts telling me that I don't train hard enough. So I start again doing more and more and more. More volume, more intensity. Until I get overtrained. And the cycle repeats.

The only solution I found for this is to do linear periodization following strictly the prilepin's chart, no matter what my mind tells me.

So, I advise you to find a proper periodization plan with easier deload weeks and follow it. And ALWAYS train less than you believe you are able to recover from.

 

[Adachi]

Does anyone have trouble with autoregulation and gauging within-session and after-session recovery?

I sure do.
that's one of the reasons I've been rounding up rest times on my sets - further and further up.
I'm reminded of the Q&D chapter explaining the Victor protocol.

I've used rest periods prescribed by Strong Endurance and usually at first I'll find them to be ridiculously long. then I get to the end and find it was just right. And overdoing rest has had minimal effects on my results. Underdoing it has always hit me.

Erring on the side of more rest has seemed to be the smarter long-term play. but every once in a while, squeezing things has led to very good short-term results like Growth in my thighs and shoulders. it's just something I can't really push for more than a week or two.

 

[Bauer]

The only solution I found for this is to do linear periodization following strictly the prilepin's chart, no matter what my mind tells me.

So, I advise you to find a proper periodization plan with easier deload weeks and follow it. And ALWAYS train less than you believe you are able to recover from.

Yes! For grinds I have found waviness à la Plan Strong and Built Strong to work extremely well, often splitting sessions and resting pretty long. Every heavy week will be balanced by a lighter week, and I know that this is part of the plan.

Erring on the side of more rest has seemed to be the smarter long-term play.

Yes, for S&S I have used this. I like the KBSF templates, but I still need to learn to find the sweet spot

Thanks guys.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I autoregulate based on movement speed, reps per time, reps AFAP (set number of reps as fast as possible) or, less often, RPE.

I don’t think using a subjective “how do I feel?” to determine volume is maybe a good idea unless you’re willing to be sore later and gunning more for hypertrophy than anything else.

 

[Antti]

I think daily autoregulation can be hit and miss. It's better to observe patterns from a distance. See what number of sets and amount of work one can typically tolerate, or excel with. Then program accordingly, and try to push it up.

 

[watchnerd]

Just three hours later I feel spent and a bit sore in my forearms. So I wonder whether I overdid it.

Feeling some disruption is totally normal and not a sign you overdid it.

Overdid it is when you're so sore you can't sleep or walk correctly for the next several days.

 

[Sean M]

I have the opposite problem: I am too lazy for autoregulation. I rest too much even if I’m feeling good that day (the drag-your-tail days are there to bank up for pushing the gas on other days). I have a scarcity mindset in general, and it comes out in training: why push when it won’t really matter at the inevitable heat death of the universe?

 

[bluejeff]

My experience is is mostly with doing things at a high frequency. So I
wouldn't know as much about autoregulating when training 2-3 days/week or something.

I tend to lean into training 5 days week where the only thing being done every day is some form of press (usually bodyweight pressing; pushup variations...). Pressing for something like 4-5 days straight often means autoregulation. As others have said, it is indeed easy to overdo it. I have found, however, that in attempting to do the same exercise most days of the week means I end up having to autoregulate. I might overdo it one week and have to go lighter the next, however. So I feel that auto regulation works best when you make yourself stick to a higher frequency plan. When you start to get sore/tired and know that you are going to make yourself do it again the next day, you start to feel when to stop, and what you can handle. I'm sure it's not the fastest way to make progress sometimes, but I really enjoy having a near daily habit/practice -at least for my own reasons- enough to try my best to make it work.

 

[Boris Bachmann]

My experience is is mostly with doing things at a high frequency. So I
wouldn't know as much about autoregulating when training 2-3 days/week or something.

I tend to lean into training 5 days week where the only thing being done every day is some form of press (usually bodyweight pressing; pushup variations...). Pressing for something like 4-5 days straight often means autoregulation. As others have said, it is indeed easy to overdo it. I have found, however, that in attempting to do the same exercise most days of the week means I end up having to autoregulate. I might overdo it one week and have to go lighter the next, however. So I feel that auto regulation works best when you make yourself stick to a higher frequency plan. When you start to get sore/tired and know that you are going to make yourself do it again the next day, you start to feel when to stop, and what you can handle. I'm sure it's not the fastest way to make progress sometimes, but I really enjoy having a near daily habit/practice -at least for my own reasons- enough to try my best to make it work.

While I get what your message is here and generally agree...
A problem with high frequency training is that there's a tendency for the high intensities to creep to the less intense and the low intensities to creep toward medium. The too hard easy days combined with higher volumes make it so you never fully recover, and your highs are less high. Over time, the highs are too low, and lows are too high, resulting in a lot of "schmedium" effort work, even though overall volume may be impressive.

For what it's worth, I'm not anti-high frequency, but I think if you're not intelligent about programming it can be a lot of work for relatively little gain.

 

[Pavel.Kosenkov]

Feeling some disruption is totally normal and not a sign you overdid it.

Overdid it is when you're so sore you can't sleep or walk correctly for the next several days.

Don't agree with that.
Sometimes, persistent pain is enough,that does not go away before the next training.
My recent cleans while ignoring an overuse sign have costed me half a year of recovery. My shoulder issue while swinging was about half a year as well.
Now - if something hurts where it should not - I am dropping my frequency ( 0n S&S ) right away.

 

[watchnerd]

Don't agree with that.
Sometimes, persistent pain is enough,that does not go away before the next training.
My recent cleans while ignoring an overuse sign have costed me half a year of recovery. My shoulder issue while swinging was about half a year as well.
Now - if something hurts where it should not - I am dropping my frequency ( 0n S&S ) right away.

I didn't say persistent.

Feeling homeostatic disruption right after a workout is totally normal.

DOMS (delayed is in the name) is normal.

If that doesn't go away within a few days, now you have something to pay attention to.

 

[Pavel.Kosenkov]

I didn't say persistent.

Feeling homeostatic disruption right after a workout is totally normal.

DOMS (delayed is in the name) is normal.

If that doesn't go away within a few days, now you have something to pay attention to.

Agreed.

 

[North Coast Miller]

For what it's worth, I'm not anti-high frequency, but I think if you're not intelligent about programming it can be a lot of work for relatively little gain.

Don’t have a ton of experience with high frequency, but if one chops the volume correctly it seems to work very well. I do wonder about the body never having a total rest day, or them being very seldom - I do better going training dormant from time to time.
It definitely packs more volume into the week at the same subjective RPE.

One more thing to add re autoregulation - in my experience it has to be part of a framework. Volume (set numbers) is the last thing I’d manipulate, loading the first. Reps can be played with by feel/RPE based on loading or movement speed.

I also don’t think autoregulation works well when inconsistently applied, since it requires a bit of “feel” and voodoo to work well, even if one is using movement speed as the primary variable. Over time it will begin to follow a weekly undulating pattern on its own, no preplanning required.

 

[Adachi]

I will say - also - that most soreness I've encountered has been associable with a change in my training.

I haven't tried it lately. but I wonder how I'd fare in more mixed-up training. If I start a new regimen, I'll notice some DOMS.

But 3 weeks in or longer, the soreness will no longer be an issue. although I may have trouble with localized or general fatigue depending on my loading.

If protocols are being swapped on a session-by-session basis, maybe that's just good conjugate training, and maybe it's just a part of the deal that you're feeling disruptions in your proprioceptions.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Whenever I am doing autoregulated sessions, I have trouble finding the right time to stop my session.

Autoregulation

It amount to relating training by how you feel.

If in a training session, it feel easy, you can push it a little hard that day.

If in a training session, you feel tire, you struggle with the Repetitions or Weight, you back off or cut that day's training day shorter.

An example is...

Today I did a E30 session of KBSF swings, and adhered to the talk test, RPE, and power output. I could push it to 180 reps. However, for the last few minutes my legs felt a bit tired (but no burn) and I didn't feel like going for the next set.

The Sign You Didn't Read

1) Your "Legs felt tired"...

2) You "Didn't feel like going for the next set"...

But as I could pass the tests mentioned above, I kept on going. Just three hours later I feel spent and a bit sore in my forearms. So I wonder whether I overdid it.

Reading The Wrong Sign

"Passing The Test" provide some feedback.

However, you let it override the fact that you legs were tired (fatigued) and you did feel like going for the next set; you were mentally fatigued, as well. This were Autoregulation Signs that you ignored.

Continuing to push yourself in a training session when you are physically and mentally fatigue end up requiring greater recovery time.

You just need to learn to read the signs and then to adjust (Autoregulate) your training.

Chip McCain

McCain was one of the best Powerliters of his era and smartest.

McCain pulled a World Record 799 lb Deadlift at 198 lbs.

Progressive Heavy Deadlift Training Every Other Week

McCain's Deadlift Program revolved around Progressive Deadlift Loading every other week, every 14 days.

His Progressive Deadlift Load were 50 lb each Heavy Session; there was a logical progression.

The exception was in his final Deadlift Training Week; we will get to that in a minute.

Light and Easy Deadlift Between Heavy Weeks

Every other week, McCain performed "Light and Easy" Deadlifts.

His Deadlift Training Percentages and Load were all over the place.

In discussing it with McCain, here is what I learned about...

Autoregulating Light, Easy Weeks

McCain's Deadlift Training Weight was based on make sure how it felt.

Once the weight began to feel heavy or he felt fatigue (physically or mentally), McCain stopped; terminated the day's Deadlift Training Session.

The objective of the Light, Easy Sessions was for Recovery.

McCain's Final Heavy Deadlift Training Week

His Every Other Heavy Deadlift Training Progressive Loading was...

Week 1) Heavy: 675 X 2 Repetitiions

Week 2) Heavy: 725 lbs X 2 Repetitions

Week 3) Heavy: 800 lbs X 2 Repetitions

His third Heavy Deadlift Load didn't make sense.

When I ask, you go to 800 lbs X 2? Base on the previous Progressive Loading, you should have gone to 775 lb X 2.

McCain stated that he knew, based on his Warm Ups and how he felt, the he could Deadlift 800 X 2.

It took me a while to comprehend what he said and learn to Autoregulate.

With that said, at one of my best Powerlifting Meet, based on the math of my Training Deadlift Poundage, I should have pulled 560 lbs at 181 lbs.

Instead, I took 575 lbs. It was a long, hard Deadlift but I made it.

Summary

Autoreugulation is a learning process.

1) When you feel good, the weight feel light and/or repetition are easy...push it.

2) When you feel tired, back off.

 

[Steve Freides]

An interesting discussion here, and I think it also highlights that, although "your feelings don't matter," there is that issue we've talked about before, about "enjoying" your training. I think we all have different thresholds for the kind of training each of our lives can accommodate, and it's not unheard of for some people to look for the kind of training that can make them miserable and then try to stay just on the right side of the edge of overtraining - I know I've done that.

@Bauer, I have no answer for you, but the idea of using a clock appeals to me and it's what I use for swings because I have trouble with auto-regulation, too.

Today I did a E30 session of KBSF swings, and adhered to the talk test, RPE, and power output. I could push it to 180 reps. However, for the last few minutes my legs felt a bit tired (but no burn) and I didn't feel like going for the next set. But as I could pass the tests mentioned above, I kept on going. Just three hours later I feel spent and a bit sore in my forearms. So I wonder whether I overdid it.

So, next time, make "my legs felt a bit tired" when you stop. You just might need a stricter standard for yourself. I used to think nose-only breathing was a good standard for some things and then I found myself able to max out my heart rate while still breathing only through my nose, so that standard isn't one I use any more.

The only place I've found myself able to manage it is sprinting outdoors in Q&D style, where I don't just wait until I feel I can go again, I wait until I feel like I'm going to be as fresh for my next sprint as I was for my first one, and I almost never do more than 4 of them in a session, but I always feel great afterwards. My typical sprints, for what it may be worth to anyone, are 10 steps, 15 steps, 20 steps and 25 steps - not much actual exercise, I realize, but I'm flying and it feels fantastic during and great for the rest of the day. If I were to take a guess at the distances, it would be one sprint for one lap of a 400 meter track, and all the rest is walking relaxedly, and I'll guess that this puts me in the ballpark of Victor's idea of one set every 3 minutes, although probably more like 4 minutes.

I ramble (for something new ...) so I stop.

-S-

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I always end up overtraining. Then I take a step back, I deload and I start training properly. For about 3 weeks.

Periodization Training

This is the definition of Periodization Trianing.

Progressively increasing the load for a specific number of week.

in the finaly week of the Training Cycle the Movement needs to be pushed to the limit or near it.

After the Final Week, a New Training Cycle is begun with Light/Easy Load.

Each week of the New Training Cycle, the weight is increased (Progressive Loading).

In the Final Week of the Periodization Training Cycle, the Movement is pushed to the limit or near it.

Sine Wave

Periodization Training revolves of a Sine Wave of Progressive Loading



Periodization Training maximizing Stress.

It is then is followed by a Recovery Training Period with Lighter Load; which allows for gains in Strenght and/or Size.

OverReaching

Based on the information that you presented, you are OverReaching.

OverReading is a mild form of OverTraining.

Recovery occurs with in a few week with a New Periodization Training Program that starts off Light and Easy, with Progressive Loading.

OverTraining

OverTraining occurs when an individual continue to push in each Training Session when they are fatigued.

Progress stops and eventually goes backwards.

OverTraining require more Recovery Time.

Wound Healing

This medidal term applies to OverReaching and OverTraining.

This means the greater the trauma the to body, the longer the Recovery TIme required. This applies to OverTraining; think Covid.

The less trauma place on the body, the shorter the Recovery Time. This is OverReaching; think the Common Cold.

Then I feel rested and my mind starts telling me that I don't train hard enough.

Overzelous Training

I admire the mental drive. However, this approached is based more on emotion that logic.

I start again doing more and more and more. More volume, more intensity. Until I get overtrained. And the cycle repeats.

OverReaching Periodization Training

To reiterate, this is OverReaching.

With that in mind, OverReaching in the Final Week followed by a New Traiining Cycle is key optimimizing and eliciting a Positive Training Effect.

find a proper periodization plan with easier deload weeks and follow it.

Exactly.

 

[Bauer]

So, next time, make "my legs felt a bit tired" when you stop. You just might need a stricter standard for yourself. I used to think nose-only breathing was a good standard for some things and then I found myself able to max out my heart rate while still breathing only through my nose, so that standard isn't one I use any more.

Thanks, that sounds like a good idea.

For what is worth, I do not feel sore today - although my legs feel a bit heavy. More in line with the notes by @watchnerd
So I guess I was on the safe side of "overdoing it"

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

that most soreness I've encountered has been associable with a change in my training.

Changed Program

That in part is what produce DOMS.

The second issue to starting off the Movement with too heavy a load; which exacerascerbates it.

Thus, DOMS is minimized by performing the Movement with very light loads.

But 3 weeks in or longer, the soreness will no longer be an issue.

"Repeated Bout Effect"

This mean the body adapts with each Training Session/

This is one of the fundamentals of...

The General Adaptation Syndrome

The body learns and adapts to new stress.

That is why vaccines work.

Minimizing DOMS With New Training Programs

It is the same as with the saying about medications...

"The poison is in the dose.