Barbell Banded Clean Pulls as a Power Developer

[Hardartery]

Some interesting arguments added to the thread. I'll start with saying that I am 100% in agreement with @kennycro@@aol.com on a point (Don't have a heart attack, we don't differ THAT much on everything) - mirrors are a bad idea and video is a much, much better way to go.
I think that anyone that cannot achieve a clean with a catch is going to have trouble with triple extension in any given athletic endeavour. Some of us suck at real Cleans, but that is an indication that triple extension is going to be lousy as well. Just saying. The ability to transmit force through the hips and drive the bar with inertia is a skill, and the idea that jumping at the end is in any way equivalent to that force generation is simply fooling ones self. You cannot teach plantar flexion to most people as a separate skill, but driving the hips is pretty easy to instruct. The uncoordinated are simply never going to get the timing down, they just are not athletic when it comes down to it. We can't all be good at everything.
I think it's important to note when discussing chains and bands that we are really talking about Louie and Westside taining. And when we are talking about that, we are talking about the concerted effort to adapt Olympic Weightlifting to Powerlifting. Louie quite candidly does that. He is taking directly from the work of o-lifters and that research and applying it to a non-explosive style of lifting. Bands and chains are meant to teach explosion by negating the effects of bar inertia and thus maintaining force application equally throughout the ROM. Which is great for grinding a lift in gear without that negative constraint. But none of that helps with driving explosive power throught the needs of most other athletic indeavours. A thrower utilizing blocking, for instance, would not do so well if he (or she) trained to drive through instead of blocking. Generating force needs to happen in a given ROM for most athletics, and it's not the entire movement. Not if you want the force directed in the correct direction anyway. If I maintain force on a hammer too far through the spin it's not landing in bounds on the field, it needs to be a confined explosion of directed force. Bands and chains are a way of teaching people to do that through an entire grindy lift - which is not natural.

 

[Anna C]

Tension on the body is caused by either load or speed of movement. When you increase the speed of a movement, you heighten the tension applied to your body and make size and strength gains equal to those generated by lifts with heavier weight. The table below provides a visual idea of the concept.

Weight/Speed/Force
185 1.8 333
225 1.5 337
275 1.25 344
315 1.15 362
355 1.0 355

The speed rating of 1.0 is equal to a normal rep. The high rating of 1.8 equates to an explosive rep with a weight near 55 to 60 percent of the heaviest weight. When you accelerate the movement with the intent to move the weight as fast as possible, you enable your central nervous system to feel increased tension on your muscle fibers, and you get stronger and bigger faster.

That's a neat illustration.

I believe in that "intent to move the weight faster" as an effective training stimulus that helps get results. I also believe in the intent to move a weight heavier than what you have -- for example, doing a get-up as if the weight was heavier, as we talked about in a different thread. Intent is a powerful force when it comes to the brain driving the muscles to action.

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

I think Kono or Starr used to talk about placing a long PVC pipe off the jerk blocks and/or squat stand as a measuring rod for the ending spot of a clean pull .... to measure height. You can set this up off to the side where the end of the barbell sleeve just taps the the pipe.

Yes! remember this kind of set up described in Kono's book, Weightlifting, Olympic Style. If I recall correctly, the intention was to pull the bar to just below the pipe so you could focus on pulling to a consistent height and work on timing getting under the bar (as opposed to pulling and receiving lighter weights super high and then riding them down; a bad habit I'm trying to break out of).

Nothing to stop you from using a similar set-up as a 'target' to hit when doing pulls but then any lifter with a degree of proprioception should be able to use their sternum etc. as a target and hit it consistently without using a mirror etc.

 

[Anna C]

Just a thought on clean and snatch high pulls as shown in the videos above... I've found those to be among THE most challenging movements over the year and a half that I've been training Olympic Lifting! Something about the timing, the power, the coordination... they are so much harder than they look. At least for me. I would venture to say I have had a harder time with high pulls than the full lifts. But they are most definitely an exercise worth doing to enable power in the full lifts.

As for enabling power training in general for someone who is not a weightlifter... I have my doubts as to whether the time invested to "get" it would pay off in terms of training stimulus. There are other quicker ways. But other people may catch on easier/better than me.

 

[Geoff Neupert]

FWIW - when I was an S&C Coach at Rutgers, I had the privilege of working with Tony Naclerio, the T&F Throws Coach, and also the 1996 U.S. Olympic Team Throws Coach.

He had his throwers train:

Olympic lifts
Olympic pulls
Strength lifts - Back squat, front squat, bench press, military press

... 2-3x week, depending on the season.

And he'd also train various jumps and med ball throws 1-2x week depending on the season.

Rutgers always had a strong showing in the Field events while he was coaching.

For the sprinters, we used squats, power cleans, bench press, and pulls ups, if I recall correctly.

Most of their time was spent on the track, where they also did some jumps and throws.

Even though I was competing as an Oly lifter at the time, there were many teams I chose not to teach the Olympic lifts or their variations to and trained throws and jumps for power instead. They always improved.

At the end of the day whether you teach Oly lifts, or banded Oly assistance lifts, comes down to -

[1] The number of athletes you're training at one time
[2] Your ability to communicate as a coach
[3] The ability of the athletes to "get it" - to learn that skill
[4] The actual amount of time you have to train vs. the amount of time it will take to teach "new" movements

Hope that helps.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

As for enabling power training in general for someone who is not a weightlifter... I have my doubts as to whether the time invested to "get" it would pay off in terms of training stimulus.

Technical Olympic Lifts

As per Anna, learning the Olympic Lifts take time due the fact that Olympic Movements require more technique.

Secondly, very few individuals are capable of teaching Olympic Lift Movements.

There are other quicker ways.

Other Simplier Power Movements

This information has previously been posted on this site.

These movement are much simplier, quicker and easier to learn and perform.

1) Heavy Kettlebell Swings

Research by Dr. Bret Contreras demonstrated that Heavy Kettlebell Swing elicit and develop essentially the same Power Output as Olympic Pulling Movements.

Kettlebell Swing loads of around one-third ahd up to body weight produce the optimal amount of Power Output.

150 lb Body Weight Example

a) One-Third Body Weight Kettlebell Swing = 50 lb Kettlebell Swing

b) Body Weight Kettlebell Swing = 150 lb Kettlebell or "Hungarian Core Blaster" Kettlebell Swing.

2) Trap Bar Jumps

This movement essentially is an Olympic Jump Pull with a Trap Bar.

Dumbbells work for those who don't have a Trap Bar.

3) Push Press

This will develop some upperbody Power.

The Push Press is essentailly part of the Jerk.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

The height at which the bar can be racked/caught can vary wildly with load and other factors.
You can bend you knees more or less (to get lower).
You can move your feet from narrow (pull) to slightly wider(in the catch).

Issue With Racking The Clean

As mbasic states, employ Racking The Weight to as a metric to determine how high your are pulling a load "Can vary wildly'...

Kono or Starr used to talk about placing a long PVC pipe off the jerk blocks and/or squat stand as a measuring rod for the ending spot of a clean pull .... to measure height.

PVC Pipe

This is a more viable method of measuring Pulling Height.

I trained at a gym, years ago where that method was used by Gary and Judy Glenny, both national rated Olympic Lifter.
The Glennys at one time trained at York Barbell with Bill Starr.

However, the issue with many inexperience lifter in using that method is some would alternate their technique to pull the bar to the PVC Pipe. Thus, focus need to be placed on maintaining sure proper technique with this method.

Want to be anal about it? put a small piece of athlete tape on your chest, under your shirt/bare skin.
Touch that spot, you'll feel it.

Simplicity

The beauty of this is its simplicity.

Something similar the I did for a while was put on a black shirt, then chalk the bar. It allows me to determine to some some degree the height that I was pulling it. After each set, I'd dust off the chalk for the next set.

With that said, what I notice was that at times (again, as mbacic stated), I dip/squat down a little.

In dropping down, the bar touched higher on my chest but the height of my pull was usually lower that a previous pull.

This is one of the issues that I have with...

Plyometric Box Jumps

Many individual like to set up some fairly high boxes to jump upon. Let use a...

36 Inch Box Example

In jumping upon a 36 inch box, they will pull their legs/tuck them up into thier chest to enable them to land on top of the box.

A Plyometric Jump performed with knee tucking like that does not mean you have a 36 inch Vertical Jump.

The same is true (as mbasic noted) with using the Rack to measure the height of an Olympic Pull.

 

[mbasic]

Plyometric Box Jumps

Many individual like to set up some fairly high boxes to jump upon. Let use a...

36 Inch Box Example

In jumping upon a 36 inch box, they will pull their legs/tuck them up into thier chest to enable them to land on top of the box.

A Plyometric Jump performed with knee tucking like that does not mean you have a 36 inch Vertical Jump.

The same is true (as mbasic noted) with using the Rack to measure the height of an Olympic Pull.

Lolz, this is good example and am shocked I haven't used this before myself .... because ....

I really can't stand box jump for max box-height (in most instances), it really doesn't prove anything from a power-put-down-into-the-floor point of view. When you get to near maximum-box-height for a given athlete, its more about hip mobility, amount of APT/lumbar flexion, etc they can get away getting into the tuck at the top of the box.

Also, I think what happens with repeated use ... and continually cranking the box-height up, the athlete starts to subconsciously worry about getting their feet up into the tuck OVER exerting full force into the ground with the jump-part. IOW, they start to cut off full extension as a trade off to prematurely get into "tuck".

The only real reason to use a box jump is to mitigate the negative effects of (unnecessary) repeated landings from maximum jumps....IOW the box doesn't need to be THAT high just to be able to land softly somewhere around the apex of the jump "flight".

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

When you get to near maximum-box-height for a given athlete, ...they can get away getting into the tuck at the top of the box.

Exactly

Jumping upon, let's say a 36 inch box, doesn't mean an individul has 36 inch vertical jump.

As mbasic noted, it means an individual is good with tucking their legs into their chest.

The only real reason to use a box jump is to mitigate the negative effects of (unnecessary) repeated landings from maximum jumps

Depth Landings

Landing from jumps and specifically Depth Landing is a effective Strength Training Method.

Depth Landing essentially are...

"Ballistic Eccentric Strength Training"

Ballistic define as a body or object becoming airborne.

Eccentric meaning a downward motion in which the muscles are stretched in the movement.

I learn this type of training from...

Jay Schroder

Schroder is a Strength Coach.

Altitude Drops (Depth Landing) is one of the methods that Schroder employs in training athletes.

As per Schroeder, "Before you can reple force, you first have to be able to absorb it."

Track Sprinter Example

Research shows the impact of running produces imparct forces of 3 - 5 time an individuals body weight.

That means a 200 lb individual can produce impact forces of up to 1,000 pound with each foot fall/step.

Before moving forard in a Sprint, an individual first must absorb the impact force, stop it and reverse it to move forward.

The Triphasic Parts of Movement

1) Eccentric Movement

This is the downward part of the movement.

Eccentric Strength is the "Braking Strength". The greater Eccentric Strength, the faster the downward movment is stopped.

2) Isometric Action

The Isometric is where the movement is stop, holding it there moventarily until you can convert it to a...

3) Concentric Contraction

This is where the Isometric Action is converted over to the Concentric Contraction, driving the weight back up.

Increasing Triphasic Strength

One of the keys to Sprinting Faster or Lifting More weight is dependent the Triphasic Strength components.

In Sprinting, the faster an individual can stop the Eccentric Downward Movement, the faster someone convert the Isometric Action to a Concentric Contraction and drive the weight back up, the faster and individual runs.

The stonger in each component of the Triphasic Phase enable athletes move fast and lift more weight.

However, few individual force on increasing strength in the Eccentric or Isomteric parts of the Triphasic Phase in a movment.

High Jumpers Eccentric Strength

https://www.coachnicknewman.com/uploads/7/1/8/5/7185558/strength_training_for_jumpers_-_david_kerin.pdf

This is a brilliant article by David Kerin, who coaches Track Jumpers.

The research detemined that Elite High Jumper had exceptional Triphasic Strength. (Source: Schweigert, Doug, Functional Strength Considerations for the Advanced High Jumper National Strength & Conditioning Association, Vol 22, No. 5 pages 25-30 (2000)...note in Kerwin article.

High Jumpers were able to convert the run up to the High Jump Bar faster than Jumper with less Triphasic Strength.

Great High Jumper were able to put on "Brakes" (Eccentric Movement) in the Horziontal Running Movement. more so than other Jumpers.

Schroeder, Kerwin and Schweigert Training Protocl For Jumpers

The most effective method for developing "Ballistic Eccentric Strength" for Jumpers is Depth Landings/Altitude Drops.

While Traditional Eccentric Strength Training helps, "Ballistic Eccentric Strength" is more Sports Specific in the development of Jumper being ablity to stop the Horizontal Force and convert it to Vertical Force.

Traditional Plyometrics and Depth Jump should be part of the progam, as well.

Traditional Ballistic Strength Training Exercises

These are effective movement for increasing "Ballitic Eccentric Strength"...

1) Depth Landing Holding Dumbbells

Rather than increase the height of the box that I dropped from, I found this elicits essentially the same effect.

With this method, I increase the loading over a period of time with the Dumbbell Depth Landing.

More Isn't Necessarily Better

I ended up working up to dropping off a 36 inch box, holding two 90 lb Dumbbell at at body weight of 200 lbs.

I don't recommend that type of loading for anyone; I lived, I learned.

Bench Press and Deadlift Depth Landings

These are two Depth Landing Exercise that I rotate in and out of my training.

1) Bench Press Depth Drop


This demonstrates the Bench Press Depth Landing Drop. This demonstration is preformed with a Free Weight Bar.

To minimize the risk factor involved in the Bench Press Depth Drop Landing, performing it in a Smith Machine is recommended with the Safety Rack just above you chest.

Since I train at my home gym, I perform it with a Free Weight Bar.

From the Locked Out Bench Press postion, quickly remove you hands from the Bar to a place that is between the chest and the Bar; allowing the Bar to drop. Then catch it.

The video demonstrates it with the Bar. I have worked up to a Bench Press Depth Landing Drop of 100 lbs.

2) Deadlift Depth Drops

I perform this off a 24 inch Box with Dumbbells or a Barbell. I usually work up to around 100 lbs or less.

The movement needs to simulate the Deadlif.

the box doesn't need to be THAT high just to be able to land softly somewhere around the apex of the jump "flight".

Plyometric Box Jumps

This is a good recommendation for Plyometric Box Jumps.

 

[Jeff Roark]

I'm not a world beater like some of you guys, but sometimes ignorance is bliss.

 

[Jeff Roark]

following shortly after...

 

[Anna C]

Nice work @Jeff Roark! I haven't ever seen a banded snatch, but you're making it work well. (Even without fancy new equipment!)

 

[MikeTheBear]

That's some good lifting @Jeff Roark. I would ditch the bands but if they work for you. . .

 

[Jeff Roark]

That's some good lifting @Jeff Roark. I would ditch the bands but if they work for you. . .

they worked for me. Do I do them now? No, I'm too old and not fast anymore. What I found with them and its really not even a concern in this thread, but they made me faster at jumping down. So many forget that critical point of the lift. You can triple extend until the bar is 3 feet over you're head, but if you can't jump down fast enough its all for naught. It also made me more fearless.

I guess I could have maybe got the same from the banded drop snatch, but I just do what I do and always will. I pay very little attention to "experts" and those in the know anymore. I listen to my old friend John McKean more than anyone.

 

[Jeff Roark]

Nice work @Jeff Roark! I haven't ever seen a banded snatch, but you're making it work well. (Even without fancy new equipment!)

For you Anna!

 

[Anna C]

For you Anna!

Nice.

You've got me thinking about that "made me faster at jumping down" aspect. It is definitely something I have struggled with.

 

[william bad butt]

@Jeff Roark

That's pretty awesome, man! You are still a BEAST!

I used to like using RB for my squats and bench press and chains for my deadlifts.

 

[Jeff Roark]

Nice.

You've got me thinking about that "made me faster at jumping down" aspect. It is definitely something I have struggled with.

I was a natural snatcher, I taught myself how to do it in a day. The clean was just something different for me. I could never get the timing just right, maybe a I lacked a little patience in finishing the pull, but jumping under is something I didn't struggle with. To be good, you have to jump down fast. The faster you go down, the lower you have to pull the weight and that save you energy.

 

[Anna C]

I was a natural snatcher, I taught myself how to do it in a day. The clean was just something different for me. I could never get the timing just right, maybe a I lacked a little patience in finishing the pull, but jumping under is something I didn't struggle with. To be good, you have to jump down fast. The faster you go down, the lower you have to pull the weight and that save you energy.

"Jump down fast" sounds so easy, but is so hard! I am getting better at it. Here is a snatch and a clean from one of my sessions last week.

I think there are a lot of reasons this has been one of my biggest struggles in the year and a half that I've been training Olympic lifts:

• Taking this up at +50 years of age... Speed is scarce
• The focus on TENSION from kettlebell training and powerlifting-style barbell strength training - had to let it go
• Just the simple action of pulling hard and quickly into a squat using the hip flexors is a new movement that I've really never done. All other squats are relatively slow and controlled.
• Quickly putting your body between a heavy weight and the ground is just against all self-preservation instincts

I think the second one has been the hardest. I really had to learn to let a lot of tension go to get faster and move faster. But strength is still required, so you can't let all of the tension go. It's a very intricate expression of tension and relaxation.

That last one seems like it might be compounded by using the bands.

 

[Jeff Roark]

"Jump down fast" sounds so easy, but is so hard! I am getting better at it. Here is a snatch and a clean from one of my sessions last week.

I think there are a lot of reasons this has been one of my biggest struggles in the year and a half that I've been training Olympic lifts:

• Taking this up at +50 years of age... Speed is scarce
• The focus on TENSION from kettlebell training and powerlifting-style barbell strength training - had to let it go
• Just the simple action of pulling hard and quickly into a squat using the hip flexors is a new movement that I've really never done. All other squats are relatively slow and controlled.
• Quickly putting your body between a heavy weight and the ground is just against all self-preservation instincts

I think the second one has been the hardest. I really had to learn to let a lot of tension go to get faster and move faster. But strength is still required, so you can't let all of the tension go. It's a very intricate expression of tension and relaxation.

That last one seems like it might be compounded by using the bands.

You have way more in you! You are Power Snatching and Cleaning these weights. Where you catch them is where you should drive them back up from. Use that powerful isometric contraction to stop that weight and drive it up. What you are doing is catching high and just riding the weight down. You need a weight to make you have to truly jump under. Here is another exercise that Gary Valentine told me to do, is cleaning from a high pin in the rack and getting under the bar before the bar hits the pins again. Maybe you can set something up like boxes and work on this.