Kettlebell Barenuckle Q&D

[Grant Taylor]

Question regarding Q&D

Pavel states that bareknuckle strikers should do power pushups on their first and second knuckles, as opposed to everyone else doing them on the 3rd and 4th. He then goes on the detail how boxers often break their fist in street fights as they “punch as if they were still wearing gloves.”

My question is: why should bareknuckle fighters use differant knuckles for pushups? Pavel never states the reason for this distinction, as far as I can tell. Does it help prevent broken hands? Or is there some other reason?

Thank y’all in advance.

 

[Adachi]

My understanding is that it's to do with the kind of bracing and forces they expect, and are used to.

When I was learning karate I was always taught to form a fist from pinky to thumb. I was also taught punch square, erring towards leading with the first and middle knuckle. This was most specifically practiced and realized in board breaking practice. Different styles teach slightly different variations of how to make contact with a punch in a hopefully stable way.

The "Bare knuckle fighters" reference is also another way to say approximately zero ppl should do this. Excepting the extreme cases.

 

[Don Fairbanks]

Question regarding Q&D

Pavel states that bareknuckle strikers should do power pushups on their first and second knuckles, as opposed to everyone else doing them on the 3rd and 4th. He then goes on the detail how boxers often break their fist in street fights as they “punch as if they were still wearing gloves.”

My question is: why should bareknuckle fighters use differant knuckles for pushups? Pavel never states the reason for this distinction, as far as I can tell. Does it help prevent broken hands? Or is there some other reason?

Thank y’all in advance.

Makes sense. Lines the radius up with the first and second metacarpals.

Boxer's fracture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[John K]

Does it help prevent broken hands?

No this is not going to prevent broken hands.

 

[MissileS]

I use to do a martial art that was internal based style, BaGuaZhang.

The teacher would recommend using palms in a street fight, less chance of breaking your hand, because it is a high probabilty you break your hand when throwing a fist. Although a skilled martial artist would hit a target that is softer with precision, using the two knuckles. Even in Ba Gua class, we would throw strikes with the fist, also using the two knuckle principle. I honestly never asked why, and I think it's a good question. I would speculate that since the surface area is smaller it would give more concentrated damage...

You break your hand I think more at the wrist if there is an improper alighment however, so knuckle pushups do teach you how to align your hand properly.

I don't think a skilled martial artist would go for a strike to the jaw or head, but rather, targets such as eyes, nose, throat. Less change of breaking your hand when hitting the right target.

 

[Luis T. Gonzalez]

Question regarding Q&D

Pavel states that bareknuckle strikers should do power pushups on their first and second knuckles, as opposed to everyone else doing them on the 3rd and 4th. He then goes on the detail how boxers often break their fist in street fights as they “punch as if they were still wearing gloves.”

My question is: why should bareknuckle fighters use differant knuckles for pushups? Pavel never states the reason for this distinction, as far as I can tell. Does it help prevent broken hands? Or is there some other reason?

Thank y’all in advance.

In boxing, it is commonly taught to throw punches horizontal as you have the glove on. In traditional bare knuckles boxing you would throw all punches aiming to hit with your index and middle finger knuckles as these are the strongest knuckles and won’t break in a street fight. Doing push ups on these knuckles will likely make them even more resilient for fighting. In JKD training we were taught to throw punches aiming to hit with the top two knuckles.

 

[Luis T. Gonzalez]

My understanding is that it's to do with the kind of bracing and forces they expect, and are used to.

When I was learning karate I was always taught to form a fist from pinky to thumb. I was also taught punch square, erring towards leading with the first and middle knuckle. This was most specifically practiced and realized in board breaking practice. Different styles teach slightly different variations of how to make contact with a punch in a hopefully stable way.

The "Bare knuckle fighters" reference is also another way to say approximately zero ppl should do this. Excepting the extreme cases.

When you perform a punch pinky to index finger it turns the lat on the most for a stronger punch.

 

[oab]

Different martial arts styles have differing ideas. In Japanese karate and various Chinese styles they teach the punch using index finger and adjacent knuckles as main points of contact with the back of the hand facing upwards. In some other arts including the old boxing prior to use of gloves they teach\taught a vertical fist (thumb up) with the point of contact being the last 3 knuckles. In the vertical fist position, the elbow points down and the arm is aligned with the fist.

In both cases, the strength of the bone and alignment is important. Building the strength of the bone up as well as the various other softer tissues is important and is a reason for selection of pushup hand position related to the nature of the striking techniques to be utilised.
In various arts, striking of objects (sandbags, wallbags, dummies, tree trunks etc) is also used to build up added tissue\bone strength, however, it needs to be done very gradually and a bit cautiously to avoid arthritis or soft tissue cumulative trauma disorders in the long term. or most (non-martial) people, these considerations are irrelevant and the main thing with pushups is to have the wrist as straight as possible which usually involves contact on the last 3 knuckles. Hand shape also varies a bit and a small number of people will find all 4 knuckles will contact the surface when doing fist pushups. The fist position can also be useful for people who have chronic palm injuries (ie due to pressure or cumulative) although for some it may be better to learn to have an open hand with all fingers apart, if necessary using a soft surface like carpet or thin rubber mat. Like so much in health and fitness, it depends upon goals and the individuals circumstances including rehab or fully informed medical input in relation to injuries.

 

[jozko]

I did goju ryu karate few years back. First two knuckles are strongly preferred there and two reasons for this come to my mind:

- most of punches in karate are direct, as opposed to boxing, where right/left hooks are used quite a lot. Also, from my experience, direct punches are more difficult to block.
- first two knuckles are just more resilient because bones are thicker there

Having said this, I use different fist positions in power pushups. I don't need to break other people's skulls with my first two knuckles and I want all my knuckles to be resilient to some degree.

 

[Pantrolyx]

I've seen rather convincing demonstrations by JKD instructors that the vertical fist, hitting with the three lower knuckles, prevents your hands from injuries in a bareknuckle context (compared to the horizontal fist version). This also seems (well, based on anecdotical video observations) to be the prefered way of hitting straight punches among Irish travellers, where boxing without gloves is quite a significant cultural tradition.

Still, the prehab efficiency of doing these knuckle pushups should not be overestimated, adult hands are unlikely to toughen up and grow explosively. Knuckles will remain fragile when colliding with blocking elbows etc, and most of us have not hardened our hands through growing up with manual labour.

 

[puddleduck]

Bare knuckle boxing has had a huge resurgence here in the uk, be interesting to see how they train. Not sure how much knuckle push ups will really do… technique is more important

 

[bluejeff]

Makes sense. Lines the radius up with the first and second metacarpals.

Boxer's fracture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This^^

Different martial arts styles have differing ideas. In Japanese karate and various Chinese styles they teach the punch using index finger and adjacent knuckles as main points of contact with the back of the hand facing upwards. In some other arts including the old boxing prior to use of gloves they teach\taught a vertical fist (thumb up) with the point of contact being the last 3 knuckles. In the vertical fist position, the elbow points down and the arm is aligned with the fist.

In both cases, the strength of the bone and alignment is important. Building the strength of the bone up as well as the various other softer tissues is important and is a reason for selection of pushup hand position related to the nature of the striking techniques to be utilised.
In various arts, striking of objects (sandbags, wallbags, dummies, tree trunks etc) is also used to build up added tissue\bone strength, however, it needs to be done very gradually and a bit cautiously to avoid arthritis or soft tissue cumulative trauma disorders in the long term. or most (non-martial) people, these considerations are irrelevant and the main thing with pushups is to have the wrist as straight as possible which usually involves contact on the last 3 knuckles. Hand shape also varies a bit and a small number of people will find all 4 knuckles will contact the surface when doing fist pushups. The fist position can also be useful for people who have chronic palm injuries (ie due to pressure or cumulative) although for some it may be better to learn to have an open hand with all fingers apart, if necessary using a soft surface like carpet or thin rubber mat. Like so much in health and fitness, it depends upon goals and the individuals circumstances including rehab or fully informed medical input in relation to injuries.

I agree with everything here except what I bolded... From what I understand, a straight wrist does not mean a straight line from the pinky edge of your hand to the ulna. A neutral/straight wrist more naturally aligns the radius with the first two knuckles (index and second fingers). Relax your arms and then just reach straight out in front of you with open palms, pointing your fingers straight forward. Then make fists from there. You will very likely have automatically aligned the first two knuckles with the radius. A neutral wrist has a degree of ulnar deviation.

When I grew up doing kung fu, this is how we were taught. I know different martial arts teach different things too. My instructor trained iron fist, breaking bricks with his fist, so I trust his advice on punching.

If we are talking about doing knuckle pushups, the radius is a bigger bone, and the first two knuckles are bigger than the second two as well. I would emphasize those, since they have greater surface area. I think there's also something to be said for exposing all four knuckles to load (as a potential safeguard against injury), but I, personally, would focus my technique on the first two.

Edit: to be clear, I think it is safe and okay to train either way; I just think emphasizing the first two knuckles is a stronger position, and trains the wrist to be stronger as well.

 

[Don Fairbanks]

This^^

I agree with everything here except what I bolded... From what I understand, a straight wrist does not mean a straight line from the pinky edge of your hand to the ulna. A neutral/straight wrist more naturally aligns the radius with the first two knuckles (index and second fingers). Relax your arms and then just reach straight out in front of you with open palms, pointing your fingers straight forward. Then make fists from there. You will very likely have automatically aligned the first two knuckles with the radius. A neutral wrist has a degree of ulnar deviation.

When I grew up doing kung fu, this is how we were taught. I know different martial arts teach different things too. My instructor trained iron fist, breaking bricks with his fist, so I trust his advice on punching.

If we are talking about doing knuckle pushups, the radius is a bigger bone, and the first two knuckles are bigger than the second two as well. I would emphasize those, since they have greater surface area. I think there's also something to be said for exposing all four knuckles to load (as a potential safeguard against injury), but I, personally, would focus my technique on the first two.

Edit: to be clear, I think it is safe and okay to train either way; I just think emphasizing the first two knuckles is a stronger position, and trains the wrist to be stronger as well.

High level boxer and gal on the cover of The Quick and the Dead.

 

[bluejeff]

High level boxer and gal on the cover of The Quick and the Dead.

I recall seeing that video and seeing her wrist/knuckle position. Again, different styles use different approaches.

I don't think either style is better for force production. I guess I just prefer the first two knuckles if I was going to consider training to strike things with my bare fists, simply based on the fact that the first two knuckles are larger and see more support from the radius at the wrist joint. If I just wanted the training to resemble punching, and I was going to wear boxing gloves for a fight, I don't think it matters as much. The OPs question was about bare knuckle though.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Personally I hit with the bottom three most of the time, esp when hooking.

The truth is any of your metas are liable to break if you hit as hard as you can. In bareknuckle it is more important to not punch as hard as you can at the head than to land with specific knuckles.

Raking shots or jabs and 1/2 - 2/3 power crosses. The knuckles are not evolved to strike hard objects, no matter what form you adopt. The human hand is evolved to use tools.

 

[puddleduck]

I’ve totally gone off watching fight sports, but the bare knuckle version of boxing seems to feature fewer big hooks and upper cuts. Targeted jabs and straight rights seem to be the better options. Prob puts the fist at less risk. Might be wrong. Find it totally bizarre that it’s taken off again to be honest!!

 

[bencrush]

I did goju ryu karate few years back. First two knuckles are strongly preferred there and two reasons for this come to my mind:

- most of punches in karate are direct, as opposed to boxing, where right/left hooks are used quite a lot. Also, from my experience, direct punches are more difficult to block.
- first two knuckles are just more resilient because bones are thicker there

Having said this, I use different fist positions in power pushups. I don't need to break other people's skulls with my first two knuckles and I want all my knuckles to be resilient to some degree.

I trained Goju Ryu also as a teenager. Haven't ran into many people in this area (Kansas) that have had much experience with it. I enjoyed the punching training in class and have punched several people in my adult life that would vouch for the top two knuckles being pretty memorable, lol. But I have also vertical punched (left hook) two guys in separate instances that were attempting to rob me. Didn't hurt my bottom three knuckles at all, and sent both guys to slumberland. I spent a few years in my early 20s punching the hell out a heavy bag. Almost never (probably 95+% of the time bare handed) with gloves on. Not the smartest way to train, frankly. But it suited my temperament and helped me toughen my hands and knuckles up quite a bit. I trained the bare handed vertical punches with aplomb. I usually favored the straight blast and a vertical hook over a boxing style turn of the hand.

 

[Luis T. Gonzalez]

I trained Goju Ryu also as a teenager. Haven't ran into many people in this area (Kansas) that have had much experience with it. I enjoyed the punching training in class and have punched several people in my adult life that would vouch for the top two knuckles being pretty memorable, lol. But I have also vertical punched (left hook) two guys in separate instances that were attempting to rob me. Didn't hurt my bottom three knuckles at all, and sent both guys to slumberland. I spent a few years in my early 20s punching the hell out a heavy bag. Almost never (probably 95+% of the time bare handed) with gloves on. Not the smartest way to train, frankly. But it suited my temperament and helped me toughen my hands and knuckles up quite a bit. I trained the bare handed vertical punches with aplomb. I usually favored the straight blast and a vertical hook over a boxing style turn of the hand.

We trained the straight blast a lot in JKD and was always taught with vertical fists. As a teenager I got into fights and always had my bottom two knuckles swell like crazy. I’m sure they can be conditioned to be tougher but I just never worked on it. We trained so much BJJ that if someone swings at me I instinctively duck and clinch for a takedown. Our coach made us do more Thai slow sparring because he had trained a lot with Paul Vunak and we were all lacking in kickboxing skills because of Sifu Vunak’s emphasis on the straight blast.