Other/Mixed Biofeedback - Grip Strength.

[TravisDirks]

Does anyone use Grip strength to gauge training readiness? I've got a dynamometer, and I'm wondering if there are any good resources for getting a consistent measurement. In the absence I suppose I'll experiment with the adjustable grip to see what feels good, then keep it the same. I'll also try to keep the same body position and technique.

I'm also not sure how much of a change is noteworthy. I'll figure it out eventually from training logs, but some guidelines would be great!

 

[Steve Freides]

I'm not sure how important gauging training readiness is - I lift what my program calls for unless I'm sick or my schedule demands the plan be altered.

-S-

 

[Shahaf Levin]

Does anyone use Grip strength to gauge training readiness? I've got a dynamometer, and I'm wondering if there are any good resources for getting a consistent measurement. In the absence I suppose I'll experiment with the adjustable grip to see what feels good, then keep it the same. I'll also try to keep the same body position and technique.

I'm also not sure how much of a change is noteworthy. I'll figure it out eventually from training logs, but some guidelines would be great!

There is section about gauging readiness (CNS excitability-wise) at Easy Strength using grip strength/vertical jump/tapping... Dan and Pavel state there that (according to Ozolin) a daily variance of 1-2 kg is acceptable and greater decrease indicates an excessive training load, insufficient recovery, CNS fatigue, etc.

The baseline measurement should obviously be made when you are definitely not over-trained and fresh. The grip measurement should always be done in the exact same fashion (position, hand, warm-up/no warm-up,...). Tapping and VJ should work the same but the text does not give numeric guidelines.

Personally being using tapping-in-5sec for a about 8 weeks (since I've read Easy Strength) and it works well for me. I also use it to gauge the effectiveness of warm up routines (and changing them from time to time). if a there is no difference in the pre-post warm up tapping than the warm up probably is not CNS effective. It seems that 2-3 tapping of my baseline tapping (of 40/5sec) is noticeable difference in performance. Again, that's only a 1-person 8-week experience, so YMMV.

Heavy Deadlift practice would probably reduce your grip strength the following day regardless of CNS, after heavy armbars and bent-presses I can not tap very well either...

Hope it helps...

 

[TravisDirks]

I'm not sure how important gauging training readiness is - I lift what my program calls for unless I'm sick or my schedule demands the plan be altered.

-S-

Defefinitly appreciate your point. The more stuff between me and training, the less likely I am to get the real work done. I also think that this approach makes sense when one is in well mapped territory.

Since I've started bending things I'm not so much and I find that I don't recognize the signs of "too much" until it's too late. I've also noticed that my grip seems weaker after bending so I'm hoping that this will be a good indicator until I get a feel for it.

 

[TravisDirks]

There is section about gauging readiness (CNS excitability-wise) at Easy Strength using grip strength/vertical jump/tapping... Dan and Pavel state there that (according to Ozolin) a daily variance of 1-2 kg is acceptable and greater decrease indicates an excessive training load, insufficient recovery, CNS fatigue, etc.

The baseline measurement should obviously be made when you are definitely not over-trained and fresh. The grip measurement should always be done in the exact same fashion (position, hand, warm-up/no warm-up,...). Tapping and VJ should work the same but the text does not give numeric guidelines.

Personally being using tapping-in-5sec for a about 8 weeks (since I've read Easy Strength) and it works well for me. I also use it to gauge the effectiveness of warm up routines (and changing them from time to time). if a there is no difference in the pre-post warm up tapping than the warm up probably is not CNS effective. It seems that 2-3 tapping of my baseline tapping (of 40/5sec) is noticeable difference in performance. Again, that's only a 1-person 8-week experience, so YMMV.

Heavy Deadlift practice would probably reduce your grip strength the following day regardless of CNS, after heavy armbars and bent-presses I can not tap very well either...

Hope it helps...

Exactly what I was looking for, thanks!

Very interesting using the tapping intra-practice to test your warmup. Has it lead you to any significant changes in your routine?

 

[Shahaf Levin]

Exactly what I was looking for, thanks!

Very interesting using the tapping intra-practice to test your warmup. Has it lead you to any significant changes in your routine?

My warmup routine is based on making sure I cover all the fundamental human movements (Dan John's 5+1) and sorta-correctives, so I don't know if I can call it significant changes. But if I see things stalling for a few days in a row I will change the order of drills or base-of-support or the drills themselves a little bit. Not necessarily making them "harder", just different to change the stimulus. For eg. changing from half-kneeling Halos to tall-knelling Halos, from Armbar to TGU or half-kneeling Bent Press, from normal-stance Goblet Squat to sumo-stance, you get the idea. It helps with bringing the pre-post difference back up. I usually go a little heavier on deadlifts on high tapping days.

But you are probably more interested if I actually see correlation between that and performance... so I went through my journal from previous weeks and... even considering my limited experience I identify correlation between my post-warmup tapping and performance, both in the weightroom (lifts feel lighter and faster) and ,more importantly (and much more noticeably either), on the sand (my sport is beach volleyball) - in a 45+ tapping day I play extremely sharp in can't-do-wrong manner. I don't have enough data to draw a connection between pre-warm up numbers and performance, the numbers are to bunched together... Maybe I should probably get a grip dynamometer as well...

I also use vertical jump between sets of Deadlifts. I measure before each set (the velocity of jump using Push-band) and right after. I don't use it as a decision making tool yet, just to collect data, but it seems that always there is an increase after a normal set, a big increase after a good-great set (I know it when you do it), a no-increase after a weak set, and a decrease after the set that you know you probably-shouldn't-have-done-even-though-it's-in-the-program. VJ is probably not the best tool for intra-session measurements when deadlifting since the jump itself is somewhat taxing the CNS. Grip-strength or tapping might be wiser choices...

All this stuff is written all over Easy Strength. The idea the book lays out about gauging CNS excitability is to use it for opportunistic/tactical peaking when you train in order to maximize the potential of your strong days and not over-taxing yourself on weak days. Fro me it seems to go along well with Dan John's remember that we are throwers that lift, not lifters that throw mentality which I lovingly embraced (punch the clock workouts, park bench vs, bus bench)

When I'll have a big chunk of data that can lead to better validity and clarity of analysis I will share my findings.

 

[TravisDirks]

Very cool report. I'd love to hear what you learn as you work with it more!

I also use vertical jump between sets of Deadlifts. I measure before each set (the velocity of jump using Push-band) and right after. I don't use it as a decision making tool yet, just to collect data, but it seems that always there is an increase after a normal set, a big increase after a good-great set (I know it when you do it), a no-increase after a weak set, and a decrease after the set that you know you probably-shouldn't-have-done-even-though-it's-in-the-program. VJ is probably not the best tool for intra-session measurements when deadlifting since the jump itself is somewhat taxing the CNS. Grip-strength or tapping might be wiser choices...

That is neat. I've heard of this as a method to try and tie the motor patterns of the two movements together. I also seem to have better deadlift days when I do a set of ten hard swings right after each deadlift set. I'm also pretty tuned into what my swing should feel like, so I notice drops in "snap", so it helps guide quitting time.

On thing I've noticed is also diagnostic is that I sometime alternate sets of deadlift with one arm barbell snatch. My ability to snatch definitely nosedives pretty fast right before I'm pretty done deadlifting. I would guess this would be a bit less taxing than jumping since your weight used will be quite small with one hand. It can be a pain equipment wise since you need two barbells.

 

[Shahaf Levin]

On thing I've noticed is also diagnostic is that I sometime alternate sets of deadlift with one arm barbell snatch. My ability to snatch definitely nosedives pretty fast right before I'm pretty done deadlifting. I would guess this would be a bit less taxing than jumping since your weight used will be quite small with one hand. It can be a pain equipment wise since you need two barbells.

One-arm snatch is interesting, probably with a KB if couldn't find two barbells...
At the moment I'll keep with more cold-numeric-data than by-feeling methods, but will use it in future to expand my knowledge and experience base.

Do you use the swing/one-arm snatch as strictly diagnostics or for decision making (weight addition/reduction, terminating the session) as well?

 

[TravisDirks]

When you do, try experimenting with no backswing, just rip the KB off the ground. The barbell forces you to do them deadstop/no backswing. This seems to cause a sharper falloff in performance (and therefore a more clear signal.

I'm using range of motion testing (like this: ) to decide movements, weights and when to move on to something else. It's caused to me pay attention and look for other things that are also reliably correlated with things like bar speed dropping.

There is a semi famous study I believe of pigeons, that were given a petal that, when stepped on, would randomly dispense food or not. They developed all kinds of absurd dances and behaviors in there attempt to cause the food to come.

I keep those pigeons in mind in a lot of life. Don't be a pigeon. Is this just a dance to influence the uncontrollable?

So I wanted to test the range of motion idea. It seems to be a very reliable predictor of dropping bar speed within the next set. I think the real bonus is its trained a much higher level of attention to what I'm feeling before and after sets, rather than only during.

(You can see more about what I'm up to in my log if you are curious: http://www.strongfirst.com/community/threads/captains-log-travis-dirks.5807/page-2#post-65696 )

 

[Shahaf Levin]

Thanks!! I'll check the video and your log!

And I'll keep the pigeons in mind!

 

[TravisDirks]

Thanks!! I'll check the video and your log!

And I'll keep the pigeons in mind!

Here is a related video
and paper: Classics in the History of Psychology -- Skinner (1948)

 

[Shahaf Levin]

Wow! Just so the video! Seems like one big biofeedback mine... gonna get my pickaxe and start mining!

You gave me a lot of reading material for the weekend... Thanks!

I also went through your log. That's a lot of data to absorb, it might take me a few days

 

[TravisDirks]

As t

Wow! Just so the video! Seems like one big biofeedback mine... gonna get my pickaxe and start mining!

You gave me a lot of reading material for the weekend... Thanks!

I also went through your log. That's a lot of data to absorb, it might take me a few days

as to my log, only the last 5 or so posts are relavent. They do tend to be long though becuase I post in 4-6 week blocks. To save you some time I would say my main conclusions so far are that

- reduction in Range of motion usually precedes other standards reasons to stop like rep speed slowing, or badly missed reps.

- allowing range of motion testing to chose the movements does not result in to much variety, At least the way I'm implementing it. I've had some nice consistent practice in big movements as you'll see in the tables and graphs.

 

[Shahaf Levin]

It just jumped to my mind that the ROM measurements and what Adam Glass talks about in the video goes hand in hand with a lot of the stuff Gray Cook talks about in Movement.

The first thing is constant testing (assuming you want improve, you can disregard testing if you don't... ). Gray Cook talks about it regarding correctives mostly, but I guess all movement is, well, movement... I innocently choose to believe that self-respecting trainers, coaches, physical therapists, and amateur and professional athletes (I'll refer to all of them as movement-people from this point) understand and implement this concept in one way or the other.

However, most of the time we test the wrong things... which leads me to the second point.

The second point is
Why do we test??
To become better obviously!
Well... Almost...

As movement-people we set goals - Dan John's point B, or answer to "Where do we want to be?". With some basic honesty we can usually determine the answer to "Where we are?" - point A. Now, I'm a Beach Volleyball player, I don't really care about 1" ROM change in deadlift during practice or if I hit the ball smoother during attack practice. I care if I win more matches. This is Point B. Most of the time most movement-people test to reassess point A' during the journey to point B. These are Deadlift PRs, Vertical Jump height, Squat PRs, flexibility, max Plank time, spiking harder, wining matches... Basically all sorts of PRish stuff... You asses you current A' and try to plot a new trajectory towards B, hoping we plotted the right trajectory...

So what does Gray Cook and Adam Glass have to do with this? Everything!
Point B is the long-term adaptations we get from training. This is why we train. These long-term adaptations are deadlift PRs, heavier TGUs, executing better on the sand, wining matches, all the PRish stuff.

But how do we get these coveted long-term adaptation? "In reality, adaptations are built on repeated positive responses." [from Movement]
We need to make sure that we have positive response to practice during the session.
How? Monitor (read test) our short-term responses. Ok, so maybe I should care about 1" decrease ROM during deadlifting...

Constant testing, screening and assessing helps us plot our trajectory to point B more efficiently. Or at least I hope so.

This second point is what to many movement-people miss. Unfortunately I don't have the luxury to innocently believe they get it, I know to many movement-people (from all walks of movement) that almost deliberately ignore it (one physical therapist actually told me there are no neurological short-term responses).

Thanks Travis!

 

[Shahaf Levin]

- reduction in Range of motion usually precedes other standards reasons to stop like rep speed slowing, or badly missed reps.

- allowing range of motion testing to chose the movements does not result in to much variety, At least the way I'm implementing it. I've had some nice consistent practice in big movements as you'll see in the tables and graphs.

Thanks!

What ROM tests do you use? and are there different ones for different movements?

 

[TravisDirks]

Thanks!

What ROM tests do you use? and are there different ones for different movements?

No, one of the strange claims of the method is that all ranges of motion are effected globally, so any will do. I use a toe touch. They suggest you try a few different things until you find something where you are not at the full possible range of motion and that you shows signs of change in.

 

[Shahaf Levin]

No, one of the strange claims of the method is that all ranges of motion are effected globally, so any will do. I use a toe touch. They suggest you try a few different things until you find something where you are not at the full possible range of motion and that you shows signs of change in.

Ok. I think I understand... I'll get more in-depth knowledge from all the stuff you posted and give it a test drive with my warmups

 

[Steve Freides]

Please forgive the off-topic post - I'm beating the bushes looking for people who want their training logs moved to the new public section. If that's anyone reading here, please let me know.

Thanks, and we now return you to your previous programming ...

-S-