Other/Mixed Breathing: Schools of Thought and Practice, Philosophies, and Science

[Steve Freides]

The strength and capacity of the diaphragm and other respiratory muscles speaks to their ability to both buffer acids from other muscles (and as the result of stress hormones) and use lactate for fuel, as these are highly oxidative tissues.

This is out of my area - I will gladly take your word for it.

Why are you trying to raise your blood CO2, in the case of health and not exercise performance?

Professor Buteyko, who died about 20 years ago, would be the person to ask, but I think I can give his answer, which would be "because it works." As with many things Russian, finding what works is more important than understanding why it works. The professor had tremendous success in reverting the symptoms of many chronic conditions. As I understand it, the "aha" moment came in an emergency room when, looking across the room, he saw someone he thought was having an asthma attack who turned out to be having a heart-related chest pains.

Chronic, low-level hyperventilation causes a myriad of health problems; fixing it the Professor's way involves keeping your blood CO2 high, which is done by breathing less - which is why I don't do any breathing practices that involve taking in a lot of air.

We test people as follows:

Sit up straight in a chair.

Take a few normal, relaxed breaths

At the end of a normal exhale (lungs are mostly emptied but not actively purged), close your mouth and pinch your nose shut with your fingers. We run a timer and ask you to release when you feel "air hunger." It is very important that you not artificially inflate your number by holding past the point of air hunger - no "I'm a tough mudder." It's a relaxed test, and when you feel air hunger, you stop.

The average test value is 15 seconds.


We then teach our students how to improve this number, which we call the Control Pause or CP. Our baseline, roughly comparable to someone getting all 2's on their FMS, is 25 seconds. Our goal, roughly comparable to someone doing their 1/2 bw press, is 60 seconds. Someone with a 60 second CP will need to take in much, much less air than someone with typical, untrained value - on the order of 1/4 the amount of air.

I am a lifelong, well-documented asthmatic - missed lots of school as a child, turned blue in the face coughing every time I got a cold, and took asthma medicines for decades as an adult. I no longer take any of those medicines, my allergy symptoms are 100% gone, I have lost my taste for sweets, and the list could go on and on - I am very, very, very much healthier as a result of my breathing practice.

Breathing through a straw will have somewhat the same effect - you'll get less fresh air, and your blood CO2 level will rise. The description of the "unreal calm" that it helps develop is spot on - higher blood CO2 has the effect of relaxing the muscles; the advice to remember what it feels like as you recover between swing sets is also spot on. Something very much like straw breathing is part of our practice and therefore something I do every day.

Last but not least, all this is, to quote Rif, "simple but not easy." It requires four 30-minute sessions per day for the first month, and most people need two 15-20 minute sessions every day to maintain. Improving is also often unpleasant - the body detoxes as your CP goes up - I speak from personal experience.

I am not convinced that we need to nasal breathe, beyond its use as a beginner's training drill (like breathing through the straws). Once you have control of your respiratory muscles, the only benefit to nasal breathing is the filtering of the air that passes through it, rather than the mouth. But I have no strong opinion on this. Your thoughts?

I don't know why, but it makes a big difference. Part of our practice is that some people actually tape their mouths at night to make sure they are breathing only through their nose. It's important, even very important.

One more thing - Professor Buteyko reported a 90% success rate; the other 10% didn't follow the instructions.

-S-

 

[Al Ciampa]

This is very interesting, Steve. Excess CO2 in the blood should be mainlining you with acidity, but my "chemistry" is weak. Perhaps it draws acids out of the muscles (reducing tension), and maintains it in the blood where it at least can be expelled through breathing. Maybe the blood can (should) carry a lower pH than we believe. I am also now looking into an alternate hypothesis on cell structure.

I need to take some time to try this. PM me if you have any additional thoughts for my practice.

Thanks!

 

[Jess Burchill]

This is going to raise some eyebrows, but...
Regarding nasal breathing, in taoist esoteric yoga and few other eastern practices that advocate sitting still for long periods of time (meditation), it was advised to breath in through the nose for it's "cooling" effect, as the practitioner developed their internal energy (kundalini/chi/ki). This cooling effect associated with the nasal breathing is contingent upon the tongue pressing against the soft palate. The placement of the tongue was thought to complete a "circuit" that travels from the groin, up the spine, to the brain, and then down the front of the body thru a series of energy centers referred to as chakras (yoga) or meridians (traditional chinese medicine; acupuncture).

The practice of keeping the tongue on the soft palate was a trade secret that was often withheld from texts, and only transmitted orally from master to trusted pupil (deshi), to preserve the integrity of the practice and filter out the undesirables. Failure to implement the tongue/palate connection prevented the energy from completing it's circuit, producing some rather undesirable side-effects (headaches, nausea, general discomfort, aka chi-sickness).

If anybody is interested, Mantak Chia has written quite a great deal on the subject ("Awaken Healing Light of the Tao").
It's pretty radical stuff, especially coming from a western perspective. That being said, these practices have been around for a very long time.

 

[Kyrinov]

Hey guys, glad to see this discussion cropping up again. If i could contribute my little bit, first, from a performance perspective the systema guys are very adept at using breath. Simikar to buteyko but for spec ops performance increase rather than treating pathology. My sketchy belief is that there was an old esoteric teaching preserved in the russian monasteries through the dark ages that got revived in various forms throughout russia...hesychastic breathing practices. Little taught in our schools is that much inspiration for greek science and philosophy came from contact w india. Etymology of words like video/idea/idiot/eidos/vidya leave the trail if one knows to look. Multiple mechanisms as work here. Blood acidity from higher co2 increases o2 release from heme. This means better oxidation at cellular level. Breath training increases respiratory centre tolerance of acidity. Less breathing shifts oxyhemoglobin dissociation to increase o2 levels for working tissue. Opposite in hyperventilation....low co2 binds o2 tight to heme, leading to high blood o2 sat but poor tissue release. Also a factor called 2-3 dpg, long term training effect may increase levels to further boost this but no science, only speculation here. If you want to study breath come to toronto and meet vlad vasiliev. Great community of martial artists and movement junkies.

 

[Kyrinov]

Pardon terseness. Ipad, on shift.

 

[Kyrinov]

Some further effects poorly understood..breath releasing fascia tension increasing local perfusion...can reduce negative consequences for localized blunt trauma with practice....undo local protective vasospasm to restore circulation. Also regulation of autonomic nervous system, tension causes agitation of cns....cns attention can somehow enage w autonomic regulation. Very unsure as to mechanism here but speaking from experience only. It works so we do it.

 

[Kyrinov]

No studies to explain found to date....even with extensive and somehwat obsessive scouring of academic materials. Too far out. Too easy to sound flaky for an academic committee.

 

[Kyrinov]

Also co2 potent systemic vasodilator....higher tolerance reduce systemic vascular resistance. Lower mvo2, increase tissue perfusion and relaxation. Complex interdependent mechanisms at play.

 

[Steve Freides]

@aciampa, what @Kyrinov said.

-S-

 

[Steve Freides]

@aciampa, the Professor said that teaching this stuff to people was like teaching Tibetan medicine to them. I have no idea what that means, but I can tell you that I read about Buteyko breathing practices about a decade before I took lessons in them; I got a little bit better as a result of my own practice and had a CP of 23 when I started.

-S-

 

[Al Ciampa]

Thanks all, for this discussion.

 

[Jess Burchill]

@Kyrinov Good stuff!

My sketchy belief is that there was an old esoteric teaching preserved in the russian monasteries through the dark ages that got revived in various forms throughout russia...hesychastic breathing practices.

I have read this elsewhere. I'd love to come up and train with you and vlad vasiliev in the future. Systema is fascinating. There is a group training in the Cleveland, OH area. Are you familiar with them?

 

[MikeMoran]

This is going to raise some eyebrows, but...
Regarding nasal breathing, in taoist esoteric yoga and few other eastern practices that advocate sitting still for long periods of time (meditation), it was advised to breath in through the nose for it's "cooling" effect, as the practitioner developed their internal energy (kundalini/chi/ki). This cooling effect associated with the nasal breathing is contingent upon the tongue pressing against the soft palate. The placement of the tongue was thought to complete a "circuit" that travels from the groin, up the spine, to the brain, and then down the front of the body thru a series of energy centers referred to as chakras (yoga) or meridians (traditional chinese medicine; acupuncture).

The practice of keeping the tongue on the soft palate was a trade secret that was often withheld from texts, and only transmitted orally from master to trusted pupil (deshi), to preserve the integrity of the practice and filter out the undesirables. Failure to implement the tongue/palate connection prevented the energy from completing it's circuit, producing some rather undesirable side-effects (headaches, nausea, general discomfort, aka chi-sickness).

If anybody is interested, Mantak Chia has written quite a great deal on the subject ("Awaken Healing Light of the Tao").
It's pretty radical stuff, especially coming from a western perspective. That being said, these practices have been around for a very long time.

This is talked about a lot in OS Pro workshop. The tongue on the roof of the mouth "closes" the circuit and allows the body to function the way it was intended. The one that that they talked about too was that because of the pressurization that the nasal breathing does it makes your diaphragm stronger and more efficient. e

Coming from a Martial Arts background I was already doing this but with OS now I have made it even better!

 

[Steve Freides]

@MikeMoran, I just tried _not_ having my tongue on the roof of my mouth while nose breathing. It's weird. It would take a conscious effort for me to do that. I imagine that most people nose-breath "correctly" in this regard without instruction, but that's just a guess.

-S-

 

[MikeMoran]

@MikeMoran, I just tried _not_ having my tongue on the roof of my mouth while nose breathing. It's weird. It would take a conscious effort for me to do that. I imagine that most people nose-breath "correctly" in this regard without instruction, but that's just a guess.

-S-

Mostly this is a cue for those that don't breathe efficiently.

 

[Jess Burchill]

If anyone is interested in checking out the Wim Hof Method, it is on sale for the next couple days. It is a 10 week program with videos outlining method and a workbook. I am not associated with WH, just passing it on.
Wim Hof Christmas Greeting

 

[Al Ciampa]

Thanks for this, Jess.

 

[Kyrinov]

I'm pleased to continue this discussion on a new bent. I have taken a bit of an interest in Mr. Hof, and so let me share some thoughts and see if we can move this discussion along since what he proposes is a direct challenge to the aim and methods of my own approach to breath and the autonomic nervous system (Systema) and to that practiced by Mr. Freides (Buteyko.) First, I was put off by Wim. I'm skeptical of people with this kind of presence. He was going to pass my "sniff test" with flying colours. He did just that. In listening to him speak about what he was doing I formulated a number of hypotheses as to what physiological mechanisms must be targeted and how in order to do what he's saying. Then I saw that he references just those mechanisms. And the man drinks. I trust people who drink. Call me crazy but I do. Almost all the teetotals I've come across in life are in some way narcissists or at least have obsessive compulsive tendencies. Then there's the fact that he does seem to subject himself to scientific examination and his theoretical explanation of what he does holds with my medic's knowledge of human physiology and how to affect it. The man is legit, that is without question.

Now, that said, as I read into him and his feats, something made me a bit uncomfortable. The man is using mechanisms that I would consider pathological to attain his feats. And this causes me some concern. Suppressing immune function is not necessarily a good thing. Yes, out of control inflammation is the underlying cause of a great number of ailments, but inflammatory mediators are not without their role in health. That he demonstrated an ability to suppress his immune system's response to what should have been identified as a threat (the E.Coli cellular capsules) is impressive, but not necessarily a good thing. He seems to be harnessing the body's fight or flight mechanisms and all the Sympathetic Nervous System (SNS) cascades associated with it to achieve increased heat, decreased immune response etc. I have deep concerns about this from a health, long-term performance and overall longevity perspective. It flies against all that I know both explicitly about optimal human healthy and "in my bones" about human well-being. Methods like Buteyko and to some extent, the Systema basic training methods, seek to enhance and myelinate the parasympathetic nervous system as well as increase tolerance for acidity/CO2 in the bloodstream. The effect of such adaptation would be vasodilation, slowed heart, improved oxygen delivery to tissues and mental clarity. What Hof is proposing to train is sympathetic pathways (which are already highly overdeveloped in our culture today,) and to promote blood alkalinity, causing vasoconstriction, poor oxygen delivery etc. The experiences of his students only confirm this....the light-headedness, tingling and spasms are classic hyperventilation. His ability to increase their breath holding stems from blowing off excess CO2 to create abnormally alkaline blood....which means that the body perceives the rising CO2/acidity levels as reestablishing homeostasis and thus allowing a long hold. The man and his acolytes are open about the effects of this method - increasing cortisol, increasing blood pH, suppressing immune function. I question if this is a sound approach. I am suspicious of any method who's goal is to increase allostatic load on the organism as a means to some idea of health. I fear that it may have negative psychological and physiological consequences. I may be wrong. I may be stuck on dogma that the proper use of this kind of training is to enhance parasympathetic pathways since sympathetic systems are over-emphasized in our society but I wanted to share my thoughts on Mr. Hof's methods with those involved in this discussion because he seems legit...and that is actually more concerning. That said, cold exposure is all good...I'm just not sure about his use of breath and the way it is combined with the cold exposure. He seems to value the exposure itself rather than the recovery effect after the exposure. Kind of like valuing the lifting of the weight and the stress it imposes over the positive adaptation that comes from it.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Kyrinov, thank you for your very interesting post. Your knowledge of the body and its mechanisms far exceeds mine, but your mention of suppressing the immune system doesn't sound right to me, either. I cannot really comment on the Hof method since I know only what I've read here about it, but it seems simple and logical to want to improve, and not suppress, the immune system.

Most of my Buteyko breathing practice is very calm, and it wouldn't be hard to advance the argument that learning to improve my Buteyko numbers has really been learning how to calm my body down. I would, in fact, agree with this, although only as a partial explanation, since the Bohr effect and other chemistry is still very much at work here.

I will take this opportunity to remind anyone interested that I teach Professor Buteyko's method via Skype - more information on OxyInside Breathing Courses | OxyInside.com and I would be happy to offer a discount to anyone from our forum who is interested.

-S-

 

[Wesker11]

I would love to take that course with you Steve, but the time requirements are just too much. There is no way I can dedicate 2 extra hours a day when right now I struggle to fit in work, working out, and studying. Makes me sad. Maybe when I retire.