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Bruce Lee

conor78

conor78

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
I’ve always been fascinated by Bruce Lee whether it’s his movies as a child or marvelling at his physical abilities. I’ve read Striking Thoughts numerous times and I’m currently recently reading “Be Water” (written by Shannon Lee) which really fleshes out his philosophies.
I’ve no real interest in the hypothetical “would Bruce Lee beat”… as his time predates modern martial arts and he was a movie star and not a competitive fighter.
Rewatching his movies and from reading his material on tension/relaxation etc.. I’d imagine he would have loved hardstyle kettlebell training..
What a legacy..
 
The first martial art I ever studied was Jeet Kune Do and it's still the most complete system I ever studied -- practicing eye gouging, hair pulling and testicle ripping for hours in between kickboxing, submission grappling and stick/knife fighting was something else. I wish I could have continued it for the last 20 years.

Years ago, well after I moved away from the JKD school, I lived in Toronto and went to Fabio Hollanda's school in Montreal to get my BJJ blue / purple belts and died of jealousy that Hollanda's school had grappling, striking AND Filipino stick / knife fighting all in one building. I like to think I'll "retire" as a martial artist training in such a place.
 
3letterslong said:
The first martial art I ever studied was Jeet Kune Do and it's still the most complete system I ever studied -- practicing eye gouging, hair pulling and testicle ripping for hours in between kickboxing, submission grappling and stick/knife fighting was something else. I wish I could have continued it for the last 20 years.

Years ago, well after I moved away from the JKD school, I lived in Toronto and went to Fabio Hollanda's school in Montreal to get my BJJ blue / purple belts and died of jealousy that Hollanda's school had grappling, striking AND Filipino stick / knife fighting all in one building. I like to think I'll "retire" as a martial artist training in such a place.
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My first was Hwarang Do. Spent about five years training it.

Went and joined a JKD school on a recommendation from a friend… in six months I learned more practical things than I did in the five years of the old system.
Stick fighting is still one of the most fun things I’ve ever practiced
 
First time I saw Bruce Lee's isometric routine I thought the exercise selection looked like a routine an Olympic lifter would have done. Some shots of adverts and stuff Bruce might have seen

 
One thing I think often gets missed in the discussion of this scene is how is fits into the larger narrative, and how it fits into the movie's overall themes. Somehow it always gets talked about like it is just commentary about Bruce Lee, but I really think that is secondary.

It's building up the machismo, strength, and innate inner violence of Cliff. It's showing the back alley realities of movie sets with stuntmen goofing around. It fits into bigger themes of breaking down the old myths, and romanticizing other parts of that era that had previously been neglected...

AND that foreshadows the stuff he is doing with Manson and the Family. They have so long been held up as these total boogeymen... but they're not. They're just a bunch of hapless dirty hippies. Cliff says to Lee, "I think you're a little man with a big mouth and a big chip." The movie could be saying the exact same thing about Manson. His myth got bigger than his reality. So let's imagine a world where the real badasses get to be the heroes.
 
Mike Torres said:
Per John Saxon who trained with Pavel, Bruce Lee did train with (and owned) kettlebells. Dan Inosanto, one of Bruce's most senior students, also trained with Pavel and Dr. Mark Cheng.

Russian Kettlebell Training – Inosanto Academy

I am pretty certain Bruce would have loved the StrongFirst system.
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From what I have gathered, Bruce Lee was more into the high volume stuff, so rather the contrary of StrongFirst. Then again, most combat athletes are still today, at least in my personal experience and in this corner of the world.
What he would be doing today would be anybody's guess - he was basically doing mainstream stuff back then (but more of it, with higher intensity; also he was cycling low doses of steroids at least according to one of his biographers), so he might be doing mainstream stuff now. If I had to guess, he'd likely be into the bar athletics stuff, and probably all kinds of tricking, because that's what most of his successors have been doing. Then again, you could fake all of that on screen with ropework etc., as they routinely do with a lot of other things.
As for his popularity, I suppose every actor needs to find their niche if they want to become famous. Lee was probably the first super-ripped small action star on screen, he did his kung fu stuff, threw out some vaguely eastern philosophical quotes and nobody had seen that at the time, and created some sort of mystique around himself. Most of us have grown up with his movies and are still directly or indirectly influenced by them. However, if we are honest, nowadays (also due to his influence) we can see little kids on youtube doing more difficult stunts than he ever did on screen. Also, it's kinda hard to compete individually with all that has hit Hollywood sincs then - bodybuilders, pro wrestlers, MMA stars, and Wing Chun is hardly the flavour of the month these days... who knows whether Bruce Lee even would get to be famous today.
 
IDK, if JKD hadn't been invented by him it likely would not have emerged in the same form via some other pathway. Plus his movement speed even by today's standards would still be considered epic.
 
North Coast Miller said:
IDK, if JKD hadn't been invented by him it likely would not have emerged in the same form via some other pathway. Plus his movement speed even by today's standards would still be considered epic.
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I think you could argue that in essence, JKD was just another version of a hybrid style, of which we have seen many over the centuries. For example, everybody who was teaching bareknuckle boxing in the 18th and 19th century was basically combining fencing, boxing and wrestling (just to use a European example for a change). Just the marketing approach - based on the on-screen-success of an actor, rather than the fights he won or the students he had produced - was different.
As for movement speed, that is strictly speaking mainly martially relevant if there are blades present (which Lee didn't use), or if brings you into advantageous positions that you can successfully exploit afterwards (e.g. John Smith in wrestling). If it's mainly kicks and punches, it depends on how much you land and what damage you do with it (neither of which Lee really ever proved, but then again, I assume that was part of his marketing strategy).
 
Period said:
I think you could argue that in essence, JKD was just another version of a hybrid style, of which we have seen many over the centuries. For example, everybody who was teaching bareknuckle boxing in the 18th and 19th century was basically combining fencing, boxing and wrestling (just to use a European example for a change). Just the marketing approach - based on the on-screen-success of an actor, rather than the fights he won or the students he had produced - was different.
As for movement speed, that is strictly speaking mainly martially relevant if there are blades present (which Lee didn't use), or if brings you into advantageous positions that you can successfully exploit afterwards (e.g. John Smith in wrestling). If it's mainly kicks and punches, it depends on how much you land and what damage you do with it (neither of which Lee really ever proved, but then again, I assume that was part of his marketing strategy).
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JKD is certainly just another variant using common tooling, but the use of beats and measures combined with strong side lead make it somewhat unique. Nothing has come down the pike that is comparable.

Lee not only demonstrated the speed was there, so was accuracy, timing, and an ability to stack up energy behind it. To this day, if you know someone getting into boxing, kickboxing, MMA, 52, etc who struggles with developing power, a copy of the Tao of JeetKunDo will improve this in short order.

There is a trend currently to view Lee as little more than marketing and athleticism, yet to a man none of his contemporaries that spent time with him felt they could best him. This includes guys like Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris. While probably not "the greatest" he is definitely an icon and standard of sorts, the real deal.
 
North Coast Miller said:
JKD is certainly just another variant using common tooling, but the use of beats and measures combined with strong side lead make it somewhat unique. Nothing has come down the pike that is comparable.

Lee not only demonstrated the speed was there, so was accuracy, timing, and an ability to stack up energy behind it. To this day, if you know someone getting into boxing, kickboxing, MMA, 52, etc who struggles with developing power, a copy of the Tao of JeetKunDo will improve this in short order.

There is a trend currently to view Lee as little more than marketing and athleticism, yet to a man none of his contemporaries that spent time with him felt they could best him. This includes guys like Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris. While probably not "the greatest" he is definitely an icon and standard of sorts, the real deal.
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Depends on how you look at it, I suppose. The use of beat and the strong side lead both were borrowed from fencing, and 99% of wrestlers lead with the strong side. Mark Hatmaker for example als argues for the strong side lead for MMA, but from what I can gather, he does so also because he takes wrestling into account. I haven't made a study of how it is currently handled in MMA, but I know for example that Randy Couture kept his wrestling stance (he was one of the fairly rare people leading with the left leg in wrestling, but favoring throws in a counter-clockwise direction, which is typical for righties). Then we have a number of more traditional styles where the lead is constantly changed (Silat for example), and occasionally changing the lead is also a thing in old-school boxing (aka "Fitzsimmons shift") as well as modern boxing ("switchhitters") and wrestling (e.g. Abdulrashid Sadulaev). That being said, I am not aware of anyone in top competition becoming suddenly successful by switching leads.

As for what exactly Lee demonstrated, we could argue for a long time. The fact remains that we have mostly demonstrations to work with, and basically no competition footage, so in the end we will never know how well he would have done under pressure. I have seen some clips that look like sparring (1967 Long Beach), but I canot say I have been very impressed by them - then again, some people on youtube seem to consider it an almost divine revelation. I come from a grappling/wrestling background, with some MMA, traditional and Thai boxing on the side, and can't say I found anything I consider to be ground-breaking in ToJKD; if I did meet someone struggling to develop power in a striking discipline, I would tell them to either talk to their coach or find another coach, because I have serious doubts whether reading a book can fix something a coach cannot. And if I had to recommend a book on developing power for boxing, I would probably lean towards Jack Dempsey (who, incidentally, was also among the sources Lee used).

As for his contemporaries, I seem to remember Joe Lewis did say he could best him (but leaving open in what context), and LeBell arguably did (although he did express a high opinion of Lee as a martial artist). And that doesn't include the people who arguably were the top of the crop in combat sports back then, even if we only look at the lighter weight classes, like Roberto Duran in boxing, Dan Gable in wrestling, Tokio Hirano in Judo (although Hirano basically retired to coach already in the late 50ies, so a bit early for Lee), or the people who were doing BJJ and Lucha Livre in Brazil at the time.

So in the end, I must admit I do think of Lee as largely if not completely untested as a fighter, and therefore would prefer to withhold praise of his fighting abilities that might be undue. He was also never tested for PEDs, and due to certain allegations, that could be a factor in comparison. That doesn't change that he was probably still the most influential figure in all of martial arts (but not neccessarily combat sports) in the 20th century. Whether that is deserved or not is another matter, but to be honest I cannot say I really care to go into that discussion.
 
There is no doubt Lee was untested as a fighter, at least not as an adult. In that vein I will point out that plenty of accomplished ring and octagon fighters have been humbled on the street, success in one does not = success in the other.

For power, Lee's understanding of kinetic chain was unusually keen. All due respect to one of the greatest Mr Dempsey, he never sent anyone flying with a 3" punch estimated at 120mph impact speed. Nor do I recall any modern MAs in the acting arena have to slow their movements so motion picture frame rate could show more than a blur, or allow time for the other actors to react even when they knew what was coming.

Agree to disagree perhaps:
I guess to me its very straightforward - Lee was an innovator who developed qualities and skills that have been seldom matched, and taught himself the way to get there. The "greatest fighter" tag would be unwarranted, but "one of the best martial artists to date" is totally appropriate.
 
North Coast Miller said:
There is no doubt Lee was untested as a fighter, at least not as an adult. In that vein I will point out that plenty of accomplished ring and octagon fighters have been humbled on the street, success in one does not = success in the other.

For power, Lee's understanding of kinetic chain was unusually keen. All due respect to one of the greatest Mr Dempsey, he never sent anyone flying with a 3" punch estimated at 120mph impact speed. Nor do I recall any modern MAs in the acting arena have to slow their movements so motion picture frame rate could show more than a blur, or allow time for the other actors to react even when they knew what was coming.

Agree to disagree perhaps:
I guess to me its very straightforward - Lee was an innovator who developed qualities and skills that have been seldom matched, and taught himself the way to get there. The "greatest fighter" tag would be unwarranted, but "one of the best martial artists to date" is totally appropriate.
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Of course, but the lack of carry-over cuts both ways. On the other hand, if you are a great combat athlete and don't claim expertise in self-defense (different topic entirely), I don't see any problem with that. Plus, as someone who has spent the last fifteen years or so fighting at pro level, coaching fighters etc., the LAST thing I'd advise a fighter to get into is a street fight, because there is literally NO possible outcome that could help his career. Either he holds back and gets his a#@ kicked, or he gets injured, or he smashes the ther guy's head on the sidewalk and it takes a week to clean it off (while he is charged for manslaughter).
As for the movement speed, cameras in the 70ies weren't better than they are now... frames per second etc. Plus, as said before, pure movement speed is only a small part of fighting, it's damage that counts. And by and large, the fastest punches which can be thrown with the highest frequency are also the weakest ("arm punches").
As for the one inch punch and the effect demonstrated on video, if the punch had been so great, it would have broken ribs rather than throwing the person over. That's the difference between a punch and a push. Also, the people in these demonstrations were standing upright, in a square stance, something that Dempsey's opponents would never do for him. So on one hand we have a demonstration, on the other hand we have Dempsey who broke the jaw, several facial bones and up to 12 ribs of Jess Willard, the reigning heavyweight champion of the world (ouweighing him by almost 60 pounds) in a title fight. I would say even beginning a comparison in punching power is somewhat unfair in this case.
I have mentioned Gene LeBell's high opinion of Lee as a martial artist, and I hold Mr. LeBell in very high regard; still, you can look at the category of "the greatest" in a number of ways. Where I come from, success is usually measured in two ways: success in competition for a fighter, success of students in competition for a coach. With Lee, the first metric is impossible to apply, and the second is difficult, because the fighters who trained with him were all already successful and rather famous - and mainly became more famous due to Hollywood roles they got through this connection. He did train with a number of people who later became successful coaches, like Dan Inosanto, but I find it hard to say how much he actually taught them and how much of their success was due to connection with him. Either way, as I have said, there can be little doubt that Lee was the single most influential figure in martial arts in the 20th century.
 
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