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C&J vs C&P

Kozushi

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member


I definitely like doing the C&P - seems to activate the back chain like in swings but also gets the pressing strength into it.

So the C&J is better in terms of being able to use a heavier weight I assume for more reps?
 
In some ways it goes back to the Dan John idea of what’s your goal.
Having run pressing programs like KB Strong/ROP in the past I have always found the press to be a good strength builder. It also builds muscle in the upper body.
I used to love the double press but not I prefer the CJ.
The CJ will allow you to handle more weight but in either single or double bell format I have found it to be an amazing exercise. I can see why SF programmed it into the bjj program. (which is a bloody brilliant program/product) I used the single bell to prepare for a tournament in June and it worked really well. Felt strong with no weight gain or fatigue.
If the snatch is the Tsar I’d say the LCCJ is a “Greek god. “
Good to see you back on the forum Kozushi..
 
conor78 said:
In some ways it goes back to the Dan John idea of what’s your goal.
Having run pressing programs like KB Strong/ROP in the past I have always found the press to be a good strength builder. It also builds muscle in the upper body.
I used to love the double press but not I prefer the CJ.
The CJ will allow you to handle more weight but in either single or double bell format I have found it to be an amazing exercise. I can see why SF programmed it into the bjj program. (which is a bloody brilliant program/product) I used the single bell to prepare for a tournament in June and it worked really well. Felt strong with no weight gain or fatigue.
If the snatch is the Tsar I’d say the LCCJ is a “Greek god. “
Good to see you back on the forum Kozushi..
Click to expand...
Thank you for your advice. It seems a lot of the kettlebell moves are the ''best'' in so many words - the key move, the tsar, etc... I am long past the point of overly stressing about what to do as a lot of the moves accomplish a lot of the same things in similar ways like the C&P or C&J gets done a lot of what you are doing by doing S&S with the swings and the TGUs, or in ROP with C&P and the snatch. For me it has become just a pleasure to swing and lift the heavy things, which don't really feel heavy any more, in the beautiful and smooth movement patterns while recognizing the massive health and performance benefits. I would not have expected the no weight gain or fatigue aspect - interesting observation from really training the move!

BJJ is good stuff and a lot of it is very helpful in judo too or in generalized martial arts, MMA etc... A mini issue for me with my weight training is how sensitive balance is in judo as in fencing since if you stumble you lose. Lifting and swinging weights have a different balance aspect than standing judo (if this is the problem) and sometimes when I am putting more into my weights I lose more often in judo - hehe. At least in BJJ you can keep fighting from the bottom all you want!
 
Kozushi said:
So the C&J is better in terms of being able to use a heavier weight I assume for more reps?
Click to expand...

If it's a truly heavy weight, I can't usually jerk for more than 5 reps before my leg drive explosiveness peters out and I start failing the jerks.

Although in KB world, this doesn't happen to me as none of it is that heavy; the heaviest KB pair I have is a lopsided 40 + 36 double KB, which is only 76 kg total.
 
Kozushi said:


I definitely like doing the C&P - seems to activate the back chain like in swings but also gets the pressing strength into it.

So the C&J is better in terms of being able to use a heavier weight I assume for more reps?
Click to expand...

I watched a lot of Ivan Denisovs (KB Sports Guy) Videos on Youtube a few weeks ago. He did a video about the difference in the Press, Push Press and Jerk. According to him if you do correct Jerks there is ZERO delta muscle work included in this activity. That is why not many KB Sports guys are practicing the Press. Your body would try to use the shoulder muscle because of habit and this would be deadly for the 10 Minute Long Cycle. Jerks are according to him to 100% leg work.

This Video made me start a push press program. I did a lot of presses the previous month and wanted to change things up while continuing my was to 2x32kg. So the push press seems like a good in between. You got the leg drive from the jerk and still have a little bit of delta work.
 
Kozushi said:
definitely like doing the C&P - seems to activate the back chain like in swings but also gets the pressing strength into it.
Click to expand...
What keeps me from doing more LC C&J is the reclean between. It kills my postural power.

I can do maybe 8-10 Cleans with 2x40. Postural muscles give out. But... My bodyweight is 75kg so 80kg clean in the form of kettlebells is a pretty high% of BW.

I can do maybe 6 strict presses with 2x40, shoulders give out.
I can do 4 Clean and Press.

I can do maybe 5 (if planets are aligned and the gods are smiling maybe 6) Clean and Jerks.

Only Jerks, I have not tried, guessing here 7-8, shoulders give out.

Push press, I have not tried, guessing here 10-12?

Kozushi said:
So the C&J is better in terms of being able to use a heavier weight I assume for more reps?
Click to expand...
The contribution from different muscles help and give out during different stages of a press. What's limiting in the start of a standing military press is the shoulders, that's why the Olympic lifters of old tried leaning back so far they turned into a standing bench press (or look at Zudrunas Savickas or Eddie Hall pressing).
A pushpress makes you handle more weight and load the tricep more (later in the movement).

Olympic lifters are the ones who lift the most weight over head, the utilize a jerk to do so.
 
Hello,

I enjoy both. I was the strongest when I ran RoP.

However, it seems that C&J, according to Pavel, remains some sort of "high level compromise" which will transfer well to most endeavours
www.strongfirst.com

The Best All-Around Training Method EVER | StrongFirst

This method, while it does not maximize the development of any of the above qualities—only a highly specialized method, not a general physical preparation one, could do that—it develops them to levels high enough to successfully compete in amateur sports, excel at physically demanding...
www.strongfirst.com

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
pet' said:
Hello,

I enjoy both. I was the strongest when I ran RoP.

However, it seems that C&J, according to Pavel, remains some sort of "high level compromise" which will transfer well to most endeavours
www.strongfirst.com

The Best All-Around Training Method EVER | StrongFirst

This method, while it does not maximize the development of any of the above qualities—only a highly specialized method, not a general physical preparation one, could do that—it develops them to levels high enough to successfully compete in amateur sports, excel at physically demanding...
www.strongfirst.com

Kind regards,

Pet'
Click to expand...
I see and that is both interesting and useful. Sort of the ultra in kettlebell minimalism... while minimalism is not always necessary it is interesting and useful.
 
Have been dabbling with C+J lately
Not very experienced in either, but I like the pop that C+J gives me.
C+P and Snatch (swing as assistance) aka ROP, is amazing,
If you are truly a minimalist and only want 1, then C+J might work.
I like the variety so for now I'll stick to ROP.
Once I achieve a press with the beast? Who knows, maybe I'll be a C+J maximalist, but I haven't completed the journey yet.
I think the responses to this question should be handled by those who have successfully completed ROP, and directly compared to the C+J.
 
in 'The Tao of Jeet Kun do' Bruce Lee said something like: "when I started, a punch was just a punch, then I learnt about diferent types of punches and it became complex. now that I know more, a punch is once again just a punch"

at my early level, i believe it's important for me to get that KB overhead and stand in plank. it doesn't matter if my set has a mix of C+J or C+P or military P or even a snatch. but as I get better with it (working on tough single 24kg and somewhat easy double 16kg) then I must focus on each type. Once I know what I must do and have the ability to do it then.....I"m reading this thread for answers :)
 
Xcal said:
in 'The Tao of Jeet Kun do' Bruce Lee said something like: "when I started, a punch was just a punch, then I learnt about diferent types of punches and it became complex. now that I know more, a punch is once again just a punch"

at my early level, i believe it's important for me to get that KB overhead and stand in plank. it doesn't matter if my set has a mix of C+J or C+P or military P or even a snatch. but as I get better with it (working on tough single 24kg and somewhat easy double 16kg) then I must focus on each type. Once I know what I must do and have the ability to do it then.....I"m reading this thread for answers :)
Click to expand...
If you understand, things are just as they are;
if you do not understand, things are just as they are.
- Zen Proverb​
 
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