Other/Mixed chronically tight scalenes and general shoulder stiffness/soreness

[somanaut]

I have had chronically tight scalenes on my right side for about two years, no doubt it is related to my posture and movement patterns. I have tried stretching and massage, but neither has helped. I have a theory, that while it is related to posture, movement patterns, being a somewhat tense/nervous person, it is also related to that I have weak shoulders. I.e. really bad at overhead press, despite having met Simple Standard multiple times. I have tried consulting with chiropractors and physical therapists, but got no concrete answers.

So my question is: Have any of you "cured" tense/stiff neck/shoulder muscles through pressing a girya? I.e. as you got better with that movement, added volume and could lift a heavier weight, did that in some way alliviate your shoulder/neck muscles?

 

[wespom9]

Ever monitored your breathing? Scalenes (along with the SCM) are a major accessory muscle for breathing. Too much "upper rib cage breathing" and not enough "diaphragm" breathing could potentially cause some tightness in the neck due to overuse.

To test it out, put your fingers on the sides of your belly (beneath floating ribs, above hip bones) and when you breathe in, try to push your fingers out - imagine a balloon inflating in your stomach on the inhale - then feel the relaxation on the exhale. The balloon deflates if we use the same metaphor.
Try 10-15 breaths like this. If that is difficult for you, it may be something to continue to try.

For the shoulder press - if indeed you do have a tendency to "hike" the shoulders, as an abnormal breathing pattern might suggest, try Pavel's doorway drill - push up on the doorway, imagining your are pushing yourself AWAY from the frame. This might help you get the feeling of pushing the bell away from you rather than pushing the bell up.

Let us know how that goes!

 

[Shahaf Levin]

So my question is: Have any of you "cured" tense/stiff neck/shoulder muscles through pressing a girya? I.e. as you got better with that movement, added volume and could lift a heavier weight, did that in some way alliviate your shoulder/neck muscles?

I did fixing my shoulders by practicing bent press and OS crawling. I can not say weather it was a specific drill or even that it was just the affect of the movement prep to allow proper bent press and crawling.

Anyway, start with the breathing drill @wespom9 posted above. If your breathing pattern is lacking it is the best thing to address

 

[somanaut]

Thanks for the replies, even if they didn't answer my question. I do not think that it is a breathing problem, for several reasons:
1) I believe that the problem of too less "diaphragm" breathing is overhyped. I am not saying that it doesn't exist, but I am unconvinced beyond rare cases, open to have my mind changed of course.
2) With the risk of being perceived at dismissive, I would say that I have a good breathing pattern, given my background in yoga.
3) I don't buy that you should breathe in a certain way, while you work, lounge about etc. So focusing on breath mechanics, again beyond certain extreme cases of dysfunction and sports performance, is not practical.

Edit: Let me try and rephrase my question. Many people, including myself complain about tense upper back/shoulder/neck soreness and tightness. Some healthcare professionals claim, that this is due to overuse of certain movements and/or postures that we repeat often. For example being hunched over our smartphones, not enough horizontal/vertical pulling. Too tight anterior shoulder and chest muscles, creating a forward moving pattern. Similarly to some therapists claiming that anterior rotated pelvis is a major contributer to lower back pain. The military press with a girya, is touted by Pavel as while not the best press, then at least the healthiest one. And that it demands an interesting shoulder stabilisation vs. a barbell press. Question: Have you seen any improvements on yourself/clients/students when their military press with the girya went up, in either quality, volume or density?

 

[Matts]

that's a precise question that seems difficult to answer- I'm sure Pavel's assertion about military press being healthy presupposes that good form and a fully functional shoulder. Having suffered the 'being hunched over a lot syndrome' you mention, I can't imagine having good form when the wrong muscles in the shoulder are in a state of constant tension and the proper muscles have 'amnesia.' This is why it's generally advisable to restore proper function before adding load. Arm bars, halos, and light getups restored my shoulders, and I avoided any pressing during that time. I do know a few guys from the gym who loved military pressing with dumbbells and pushed through no matter how sore their shoulders were, and all eventually ended up in surgery.
Sorry to not answer the precise question, but hopefully you'll find a way to health and strength!
'

 

[Bret S.]

@somanaut
How is your T-spine mobility? I've found that arm bars, get-ups and most of all hanging has helped me to have a more relaxed upper back/neck and trap area.

Not long ago there was a post on hanging for 30 seconds, then pull up, hang for 30 more seconds then pull up... repeat for as long as you can hang. I can go to 4 pull-ups max (2 minutes) then my grip gives out. After doing these for a few days everything seems to be loosening further.

Another version of the arm bar has helped me. I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else but essentially it's a partial get-up with a light bell (16k usually). You first roll to the elbow as per usual, then switch legs and move to both knees while staying on the elbow, all the while keeping the bell arm up and extended.
This position feels really good and flexes the spine more than a traditional arm bar.

These moves have increased upper back and shoulder mobility for me.

 

[Matts]

second the hanging...that helped me, too.

 

[Shahaf Levin]

Another version of the arm bar has helped me. I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else but essentially it's a partial get-up with a light bell (16k usually). You first roll to the elbow as per usual, then switch legs and move to both knees while staying on the elbow, all the while keeping the bell arm up and extended.
This position feels really good and flexes the spine more than a traditional arm bar.

This tall kneeling arm bar variation is amazing t-spine mobility/awarness tool.

@Pavel Macek has a video of such get-up variation called SOS GU (addition to your described armbar - from kneeling to lunge to standards). I actually want to try this with presses...

EDIT: tried some SOS GU with press with 12kg KB... That some awkward pressing... Will try with 8kg next time and see what it feels like

 

[somanaut]

@Matts
I enjoy halo, arm bar and TGU. But so far they have not solved my problem. I wouldn’t go so far as call it hunched over, I have seen far worse. But muscle “amnesia” is what I believe is part of the problem. Hence my thoughts about the girya military press.

@Brett S
I have heard good things about hanging, if I recall correctly there was a doctor that put out a book about as shoulder rehab?

My pull up form is crap, I am simply not strong enough to do it properly. Will probably buy a good bar and a band to help next year. But I want a proper wall mounted one, so will have to save for it.

So far swings and TGU has help me get a stronger and healthier back, probably because of the dynamic hip hinge and bracing in the swing, and the more static bracing of the TGU. As long as I do my swings and TGU 4-6 times a week I can work, hike and do zazen with no significant low back discomfort.

 

[fractal]

Unfortunately, this is a very individual question.

I believe if you can train out some bad habits through practice and improvement of your pressing technique it may help. Like yourself, I struggle to improve my press - funnily enough my weaker side for presses holds much more neck and upper back tension. I find it much harder to pack my shoulder on this side. I’m working on OAPUs at the moment and that seems to be patterning packing well for me. If I’m not mistaken, you’re much further along with those than I am though.

Do you hold any facial tension when you train? Or excessively lean away when pressing?

I definitely see a strong correlation between scalene tension and stress, anxiety and general tension. The trouble is, you can breathe perfectly when you focus on it, but as soon as life throws a curveball at you (deadlines, traffic, pressure, etc), those patterns fly out the window and the scalenes switch on. It’s not a matter of being able to breathe properly, but remembering to do so when things get hairy.

The scalenes attach to the upper 2 ribs and as long as they (or even as low as rib 6 for that matter) are dysfunctional, the secondary tension will only ever be temporarily alleviated. Unfortunately, it seems the upper ribs are often overlooked by many professionals.

This isn’t a substitute for a fully history and hands on assessment but it might give you some ideas to chew on.

From a personal perspective; pullovers, mace work, snatches, hanging, light weight vest walking and lacrosse ball work into my upper back have done great things for me. The latter I’ve done for a long time with temporary relief. The combination of the other elements has left my upper back feeling very fluid with much less need to self manipulate over a lacrosse ball.

 

[Steve Freides]

@somanaut, a few thoughts for you:

Part of the wonder of the one-arm press is precisely that one can do it with less than perfect overhead mobility. If you wish to give this a try for yourself, look up Pavel’s original Russian Kettlebell Challenge book and read about how, at the top of your press, you can pulse your shoulder forward. Please read and follow the instructions in the book - it’s a small movement but it can be very helpful.

The barbell overhead press is a place where you can work on your mobility and posture, and it gets my vote as what to try next after the one-arm kb press. The two bell press is even more challenging than the barbell because you can’t try to pull the bar apart.

The barbell bench press, done powerlifting style, can be excellent for posture, provided you do it properly, with a big arch, and keeping the shoulders down and back, and really pulls the bar down and apart as you lower.

-S-

 

[rickyw]

This isn’t a substitute for a fully history and hands on assessment

I second this. There is no substitute for finding a manual therapist who knows what they are doing. That’s easier said than done.

You can’t always exercise everything away and unilateral scalene problems will likely prove more difficult to self rehab.

But then again, as Kevin Garnett says, “Anything is possible!”

 

[fractal]

There is no substitute for finding a manual therapist who knows what they are doing. That’s easier said than done.

You can’t always exercise everything away and unilateral scalene problems will likely prove more difficult to self rehab.

+1

 

[somanaut]

@fractal @Steve Freides @rickyw
Thanks for your replies, I am on my phone so will keep my response short.

I am pretty sure, that the shoulder/neck/upper back problem is a product of posture and especially work habits: lots of static horizontal pressing with internally rotated shoulders. Now this isn’t by itself enough to cause the problem, I think that it is this that has overloaded and has manifested itself.

I am not under the illusion, that one can self rehab everything, next stop is dry needling, and if that doesn’t work, there is an osteopath who is also a physical therapist I might see.

But as I tried to explain with the swing and TGU, where these movements have if not fixed my back, then at least alliviate it, I was wondering if the military press could also be used. But I can tell by the replies that it is not the consensus of the forums.

My hypothesis was: many common shoulder problems are due to overuse and static movements. If one induces strength, stimuli and perhaps hypertrophy in another direction, this could have a positive effect on the persons perceived discomfort, tightness or pain. And I was wondering if a lot of shoulder problems could be at least kept somewhat at bay by having them vertically Press a lot.

 

[Antti]

Have you tried carries, rows, shrugs, and their variations?

 

[Steve Freides]

Pulling back sounds better than just pressing up.

-S-

 

[Al Ciampa]

Have any of you "cured" tense/stiff neck/shoulder muscles through pressing a girya? I.e. as you got better with that movement, added volume and could lift a heavier weight, did that in some way alliviate your shoulder/neck muscles?

Not that I can remember.

Have you seen any improvements on yourself/clients/students when their military press with the girya went up, in either quality, volume or density?

Of course.

I believe that the problem of too less "diaphragm" breathing is overhyped. I am not saying that it doesn't exist, but I am unconvinced beyond rare cases, open to have my mind changed of course.

Nothing about your posts indicate an open mind. Breathing would be my first focus if you walked into my office; even if you're convinced it isn't a problem. Let's at least check the box.

With the risk of being perceived at dismissive, I would say that I have a good breathing pattern, given my background in yoga.

I wouldn't automatically think so. In many cases, modern Yoga practice is far from what it once was.

I don't buy that you should breathe in a certain way, while you work, lounge about etc. So focusing on breath mechanics, again beyond certain extreme cases of dysfunction and sports performance, is not practical.

Since your mind is obviously closed to this, I'll leave you with your neck tension...

 

[North Coast Miller]

@fractal @Steve Freides @rickyw
Thanks for your replies, I am on my phone so will keep my response short.

I am pretty sure, that the shoulder/neck/upper back problem is a product of posture and especially work habits: lots of static horizontal pressing with internally rotated shoulders. Now this isn’t by itself enough to cause the problem, I think that it is this that has overloaded and has manifested itself.

I am not under the illusion, that one can self rehab everything, next stop is dry needling, and if that doesn’t work, there is an osteopath who is also a physical therapist I might see.

But as I tried to explain with the swing and TGU, where these movements have if not fixed my back, then at least alliviate it, I was wondering if the military press could also be used. But I can tell by the replies that it is not the consensus of the forums.

My hypothesis was: many common shoulder problems are due to overuse and static movements. If one induces strength, stimuli and perhaps hypertrophy in another direction, this could have a positive effect on the persons perceived discomfort, tightness or pain. And I was wondering if a lot of shoulder problems could be at least kept somewhat at bay by having them vertically Press a lot.

I am not familiar with scalenes or issue surrounding them so this is all speculation.

I would think working on active posture corrections throughout the day and paying good $ for some massage will yield biggest bang for the buck.
Attempting to make corrections through exercise without knowing exactly how to proceed is unlikely to help much but also unlikely to do much harm.

 

[somanaut]

Not that I can remember.



Of course.



Nothing about your posts indicate an open mind. Breathing would be my first focus if you walked into my office; even if you're convinced it isn't a problem. Let's at least check the box.



I wouldn't automatically think so. In many cases, modern Yoga practice is far from what it once was.



Since your mind is obviously closed to this, I'll leave you with your neck tension...

That came across as needlessly passive aggressive. But since I don’t know you in person, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and answer your critique as fairly as I can.
1) I don’t mind a competent coach/therapist looking at breathing patterns. But I also think that it perhaps has more to do with the clients/students mental state. I.e. are they easily stressed/agitated. Learning a person to stay calm under pressure is indeed a valuable tool, and breath awareness could be a good component of that.
2) You are correct about that I shouldn’t have concluded that just because I have a background in yoga that I know how to breathe. I may know technique but the quality of that may be bad. And as @fractal pointed out. There is a big difference between being able to breathe more with the diaphragm in controlled situations vs automatically.
I assume that you are referring to the book “Roots of yoga” by Singleton (can’t remember the co author) when you contrast modern yoga to whatever was before?

My thoughts about breathing patterns is this: Yes there can be a link between ones breathing and shoulder stiffness. However if there is one, it is very complicated to discern what comes first. And posture and muscular imbalance probably also need to be addressed. A person mental general/specific mental might also need to be addressed.

 

[Steve Freides]

This thread is now closed.

-S-