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Kettlebell Clean Swing & their relation

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So another thing I've been wondering about, and just can't find any information on..

Why is it 2hSwing > 1hSwing > Clean and not 2hSwing > Clean> 1hSwing ??

I find cleaning a bell easier than one-arm swinging it. A heavier bell can be used in cleans, opposed to one-arm swing. It's obvious one-arm swinging is a great step towards snatches, and swinging improves cleaning..

But does this work the other way around ? Would Cleans improve Swings ?
Could 'loaded cleans' lead up to stronger one-arm swings ?

Actually single bell cleans are too easy right ? Pavel said so in RTK, so wouldn't it be logical to teach Cleans before one arm swing ?

Just curious :)
 
Shawn90 said:
Why is it 2hSwing > 1hSwing > Clean and not 2hSwing > Clean> 1hSwing ??
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IMO for the patterning and the technique demands.

Shawn90 said:
I find cleaning a bell easier than one-arm swinging it. A heavier bell can be used in cleans, opposed to one-arm swing.
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Have you recorded yourself during both?
Like you I can clean more than I can 1HSwing, but the quality in my cleans is lower. If you look at the perfect 1HS and the perfect clean, my 1HS is much closer to the perfect swing than where my clean is in relation to the perfect clean.
IMO you can clean heavier, because you can muscle the weight up even when your technique is not on point. The same can't be said for swing.

Shawn90 said:
But does this work the other way around ? Would Cleans improve Swings ?
Could 'loaded cleans' lead up to stronger one-arm swings ?
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Maybe, because of increased grip strength. Otherwise I don't think that cleans improve your hinge or hip power for swings, because a) the timing is a bit different and b) you simply can't put as much power into a clean.***

***I mean you can, but it will totally mess up the movements. Cleans are about putting just enough power into it to get the KB in the rack. Too much power and the KB will fly up too high or too far in front of you, depending on your technique.

Shawn90 said:
Actually single bell cleans are too easy right ? Pavel said so in RTK, so wouldn't it be logical to teach Cleans before one arm swing ?
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Coming back to what I said in the first two paragraphs.
From a technique standpoint cleans are harder than any kind of swing so it makes sense to teach them later.
IMO single cleans are one the hardest KB exercises to get right. Note I'm not saying on of the hardest, but one of the hardest to get right! You will be able to clean in some way very early on your KB path, but cleaning well will take a lot longer than swinging well.
Even double cleans are easier than single cleans IMO and I know a lot of people on the forum who think the same.
 
There are less moving parts in a 1-hand swing than there are in a clean. Once your hips have done the work, all you have to do is let the bell fly, essentially. Bringing the bell into the rack position after the hike pass and ballistic hip drive takes more skill, thus taught after the swing.
 
Kettlebelephant said:
IMO single cleans are one the hardest KB exercises to get right. Note I'm not saying on of the hardest, but one of the hardest to get right! You will be able to clean in some way very early on your KB path, but cleaning well will take a lot longer than swinging well.
Even double cleans are easier than single cleans IMO and I know a lot of people on the forum who think the same.
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+1.
 
I don't think it should be considered totally out of the question to teach the clean first. It requires less hip drive than the swing, and if one starts with the rack position, and then teaches, "drop the weight down and back, and bring it back to where it started," that could serve as an introduction to the swing.

I don't do this often, but I recall doing it at least once somewhere along the way - and no one got hurt. :)

-S-
 
I was watching a video of Tracy Reifkind doing a workshop at Louka Kurcer's gym recently and she was using the two-handed clean as a movement in a chain/complex. I thought that was brilliant -- and something that is completely missing from StrongFirst's curriculum, to my knowledge.

The two-handed kettlebell clean is basically what you do when you pick up the bell for a goblet squat, but do it a little more like a regular clean by utilizing the backswing.

She was doing combos of "swing - clean - squat", all with 2 hands, that looked so simple and effective.

It made me think that more initial focus on the two-handed clean might make teaching the one-handed clean a lot smoother.
 
Anna C said:
It made me think that more initial focus on the two-handed clean might make teaching the one-handed clean a lot smoother.
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This makes sense to me. Learning the clean, you have to deal with two things: guiding the bell path and smoothly racking the bell. With the "goblet clean" you only have to worry about the bell path. Then you can add the rack once you have the bell path grooved. Sounds like it has potential.

Baker said:
I am a big fan of cleans in general - dead or hang, kettlebells or barbells.
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I've become a big fan of the double KB clean as a stand alone drill (I've often done them A+A style), and as part of complexes. I'll reiterate @Kettlebelephant's point about double cleans being easier to learn that single cleans. I also like double cleans much better than double swings as a higher load ballistic hinge drill.
 
For me the cleans are harder. No matter that I swing 32 kg daily, I can still easily mess up the 16 kg clean and bang the wrist or land it in an unfavorable position to press.
 
For me skill wise swings and 1 arm swings are real natural, cleans I need to think about but can do. The ballistic I have issues with are snatches. Unless snatch press count then I'm great...
 
Kettlebelephant said:
***I mean you can, but it will totally mess up the movements. Cleans are about putting just enough power into it to get the KB in the rack. Too much power and the KB will fly up too high or too far in front of you, depending on your technique.
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Kettlebelephant, thank you, you may have just cleared something up for me. I'd given up on cleans because I....just...couldn't....learn them, no matter how hard I tried. Never saw an SFG about them because I was more interested in the swings and getups. The only way I could perform a reasonable approximation of a good clean is if I underpowered the hip thrust, which made it easier to flip it over into the rack position. When I tried to do it as I would a full blown one arm swing, I would launch it too far from my body and make some compensation to try and pull it closer to me for the rack. That seemed wrong because it started to hurt my elbow. I actually found the snatch much easier to learn, but that's another move I don't practice often due to lack of headroom in my basement. But when I have attempted snatches, though it seemed scarier at first, I felt much more comfortable than with a clean. Looks like from some of the commenters here that I'm not the only one.

I guess I had it in my head that because Enter The Kettlebell teaches the swing, the getup, the clean and press, and lastly the snatch in that order, that it was in order of difficulty.
 
@Baron von Raschke
DOUBLE cleans can definitely improve single bell swings and snatches since the load can be a lot higher. After a lot of double cleans, a single bell will fly up.

Baron von Raschke said:
When I tried to do it as I would a full blown one arm swing, I would launch it too far from my body and make some compensation to try and pull it closer to me for the rack.
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For a clean, it is partly about modulating hip power, but more about guiding the bell path. You have to keep your upper arm in close and NOT let the bell get out in front to being with. Then you don't have to reel it in at the top. The action is often described as "zipping up a sweater."

Baron von Raschke said:
which made it easier to flip it over into the rack position.
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You should not be "flipping" the bell over into the rack. The bell stays handle-up the whole time. While the bell is floating, you shift your HANDS from on top of the handle to under the handle in the rack, but the body of the bells stay below the hands the whole time. The bells will rotate about a vertical axis, but should not flip.
 
Ive met a sfg only once and had my swing and tgu checked. but he also made us clean 5 x 5. My clean with left, according to the instructor was actually quite good, even though i never clean. Right was off and used a bit of bicep. My 1hs I lean into during the motion and i still catch myself doing this.

Ive watched many vids of rkc ppl clean a bell. understanding a movement really helps :)
 
Shawn90 said:
The kind of clean used to get in position for bent presses ? Or 2 bells ?
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No, neither of these.

Hike the bell back like you're going to swing, then pop it up into a goblet hold, with the kettlebell right side up and your hands on either side of the handles. That's a two-handed clean with a single bell. You can actually do that repetitively... or alternate swing, clean, swing, clean.... or even for another variation, flip the bell to an upside down goblet hold like this.

Maybe it has another name? I don't know. Because, yes, you can two-handed clean a bell to one side like you would with a heavy bent press - a different move.
 
Anna C said:
Maybe it has another name? I don't know. Because, yes, you can two-handed clean a bell to one side like you would with a heavy bent press - a different move.
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I'm not aware of any existing name for it.

After you described it above, I referred to it as a "goblet clean."
 
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