Sean Schniederjan
Level 3 Valued Member
Is this press legit?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwIrBmcS-Lo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwIrBmcS-Lo
Old Forum Controversial Press Question
- Thread starter Sean Schniederjan
- Start date
- Status
rambodoc@gmail.com
Level 3 Valued Member
Far be it for me to critique a guy like VF, but IMO using the other arm , a bit of hip and knee to get a weight up is not unlike what we do in real life. The reason we don't allow that in training is to keep the standards even for all, and teach the tension, which a full, locked-out press provides.
I like the way he externally rotates the shoulder on the lockout.
Correct me if I am wrong....
I like the way he externally rotates the shoulder on the lockout.
Correct me if I am wrong....
Jeff Steinberg
Level 1 Valued Member
It's too legit to quit.
In all seriousness, I'd characterize his press as the kettlebell equivalent of the 1950's/early 60's Olympic press (as demonstrated by Tommy Kono, et al at the 1958 World Weightlifting Championships: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksm5_Z_HUEY). It's not quite a military press, but it's most certainly a legitimate press and does not toe the line of a side press or push press.
To watch his press, it's a bit deceiving at first blush. His stunningly fast start, precipitated by a small twist, makes it seem as if he must be "cheating" in some way. Focusing on the slight body english detracts from the bigger performance driver, though. His start is so fast because he's an unusually explosive man and exceptional at pressing from the back instead of the shoulder. So far as I can tell, the twist seems to be more about positioning himself to press in a perfectly vertical path without any drift in the arm/bell.
In all seriousness, I'd characterize his press as the kettlebell equivalent of the 1950's/early 60's Olympic press (as demonstrated by Tommy Kono, et al at the 1958 World Weightlifting Championships: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksm5_Z_HUEY). It's not quite a military press, but it's most certainly a legitimate press and does not toe the line of a side press or push press.
To watch his press, it's a bit deceiving at first blush. His stunningly fast start, precipitated by a small twist, makes it seem as if he must be "cheating" in some way. Focusing on the slight body english detracts from the bigger performance driver, though. His start is so fast because he's an unusually explosive man and exceptional at pressing from the back instead of the shoulder. So far as I can tell, the twist seems to be more about positioning himself to press in a perfectly vertical path without any drift in the arm/bell.
It depends on what you mean by legit. Would our judges at a Beast Challenge pass any of those reps?
-S-
-S-
Journeyman
Level 5 Valued Member
I would say that it is most definitely a legit press.
It is not a 'military' press, but as Jeff said more like an 'olympic' press with layback. VF said in one of his other videos, something to the effect of 'I use ballistic press, it works for me, you might want to do differently'. It seems to be a knees-locked push press, using the twist in the hip to help speed the bell off the shoulder. Synchronization of strength and power from the hip and midsection as well as the tricep/shoulder girdle gets the bell overhead.
I've tried it, it's a fun way to press, though without steady practice I wasn't able to get that much 'extra' out of it in terms of extra weight/reps from my 'normal' or 'strict' MP. I've also heard the VF style called the 'fast' or 'GS' press, I believe this was the form preferred in GS comps when the press was still a competition lift--and apparently just like the olympic press it was eventually discontinued when many lifters began sneaking leg drive into their presses.
As for 'legitimacy' with the beast tamer challenge, I don't think it would pass... but VF would definitely be able to press the 48kg with 'military' form if he wanted with relative ease, so it seems a moot point, to me?
It is not a 'military' press, but as Jeff said more like an 'olympic' press with layback. VF said in one of his other videos, something to the effect of 'I use ballistic press, it works for me, you might want to do differently'. It seems to be a knees-locked push press, using the twist in the hip to help speed the bell off the shoulder. Synchronization of strength and power from the hip and midsection as well as the tricep/shoulder girdle gets the bell overhead.
I've tried it, it's a fun way to press, though without steady practice I wasn't able to get that much 'extra' out of it in terms of extra weight/reps from my 'normal' or 'strict' MP. I've also heard the VF style called the 'fast' or 'GS' press, I believe this was the form preferred in GS comps when the press was still a competition lift--and apparently just like the olympic press it was eventually discontinued when many lifters began sneaking leg drive into their presses.
As for 'legitimacy' with the beast tamer challenge, I don't think it would pass... but VF would definitely be able to press the 48kg with 'military' form if he wanted with relative ease, so it seems a moot point, to me?
Jeff Steinberg
Level 1 Valued Member
Apologies in advance...I couldn't help myself re: the thesis that follows:
Setting aside any conjecture regarding the Beast Tamer Challenge (many smaller lifters press heavier bells with some kind of layback, myself included), I strongly suggest watching Fedorenko press, over and over and over. There aren't a lot of high resolution videos out there of outstanding Olympic pressers, and while this technique probably isn't the best for physique or coaching applications, if you are interested in the press as a pure performance lift, this video is probably as good as it gets. Slow down the video, study key positions - when the elbow leaves the body, the sticking point, etc. - and you will see there is a lot going on here that can be conceptualized to improve your own performance in terms of weight/reps lifted, beyond the twist.
1) At the beginning of the press, Fedorenko "cocks" himself, loading his upper arm into the stronger muscles of his ribcage and mid/upper-back. This is not unlike what we do; he just does it with a degree of finesse that few can match. His exceptionally flexible upper back allows him to load the arm deeper into his body without bending the legs.
2) When the bell appears to "leap" off his shoulder, you can see his lat push forward and his elbow presses upward...before he opens up his arm. This is a very precise movement, and appears to be key to his perfectly straight bell path, likely developed through thousands of repetitions in the jerk. If he opened earlier, the strain on his shoulder would be greater, and if he opened any later, he'd lose his vertical forearm and have to French press the bell back into position.
3) As the bell reaches the sticking point, rather than leaning his upper-body further away from the press, he pulls his shoulder down and leans his center of gravity back into the press, leading from the groin/hips. This pulls the bell back over his head, providing better leverage for lock-out - it is also the movement that makes his press so reminiscent of the Olympic press.
3a) It's hard to tell from the angle of the video, but it also appears as if he drops his shoulder blade while pressing through the sticking point, straightening his arm by pulling it into the body, as opposed to pushing the hand away. It happens very fast, and it's hard to tell without a side angle, but the end result is that his arm straightens from both ends. I've seen other good overhead lifters do this also - it contributes an almost eery appearance of sudden ease to the press following the sticking point.
4) He adjusts under the weight at lock-out, stacking the pressure vertically on his skeletal structure, as opposed to his soft tissue. This greatly improves his ability to perform repetitions in the overhead press with a weight that he might struggle to bench press. My personal experience is that this type of ultra-efficient overhead position is unique to the kettlebell, as you can't make the same adjustment while gripping a barbell two-handed, and the center-set weight of a dumbbell/barbell lifted one-handed does not provide a counter to the outward pull of the upper-back muscles.
Setting aside any conjecture regarding the Beast Tamer Challenge (many smaller lifters press heavier bells with some kind of layback, myself included), I strongly suggest watching Fedorenko press, over and over and over. There aren't a lot of high resolution videos out there of outstanding Olympic pressers, and while this technique probably isn't the best for physique or coaching applications, if you are interested in the press as a pure performance lift, this video is probably as good as it gets. Slow down the video, study key positions - when the elbow leaves the body, the sticking point, etc. - and you will see there is a lot going on here that can be conceptualized to improve your own performance in terms of weight/reps lifted, beyond the twist.
1) At the beginning of the press, Fedorenko "cocks" himself, loading his upper arm into the stronger muscles of his ribcage and mid/upper-back. This is not unlike what we do; he just does it with a degree of finesse that few can match. His exceptionally flexible upper back allows him to load the arm deeper into his body without bending the legs.
2) When the bell appears to "leap" off his shoulder, you can see his lat push forward and his elbow presses upward...before he opens up his arm. This is a very precise movement, and appears to be key to his perfectly straight bell path, likely developed through thousands of repetitions in the jerk. If he opened earlier, the strain on his shoulder would be greater, and if he opened any later, he'd lose his vertical forearm and have to French press the bell back into position.
3) As the bell reaches the sticking point, rather than leaning his upper-body further away from the press, he pulls his shoulder down and leans his center of gravity back into the press, leading from the groin/hips. This pulls the bell back over his head, providing better leverage for lock-out - it is also the movement that makes his press so reminiscent of the Olympic press.
3a) It's hard to tell from the angle of the video, but it also appears as if he drops his shoulder blade while pressing through the sticking point, straightening his arm by pulling it into the body, as opposed to pushing the hand away. It happens very fast, and it's hard to tell without a side angle, but the end result is that his arm straightens from both ends. I've seen other good overhead lifters do this also - it contributes an almost eery appearance of sudden ease to the press following the sticking point.
4) He adjusts under the weight at lock-out, stacking the pressure vertically on his skeletal structure, as opposed to his soft tissue. This greatly improves his ability to perform repetitions in the overhead press with a weight that he might struggle to bench press. My personal experience is that this type of ultra-efficient overhead position is unique to the kettlebell, as you can't make the same adjustment while gripping a barbell two-handed, and the center-set weight of a dumbbell/barbell lifted one-handed does not provide a counter to the outward pull of the upper-back muscles.
Physical Culture
Level 5 Valued Member
I can't give it the detailed critique Jeff did, but I'll share my thoughts:
1. the bell goes up.
2. the lift is not something else (push press, side press, jerk, etc.).
3. technique is consistent from one rep to the next. He's not making this up as he goes.
4. In the original RCK book, Pavel discusses, kicking the hip to the side and leaning lightly to displace the weight. In his photos he does this, though without a video (I don't own it), it's hard to tell if he is doing what VFed is doing here.
I'd call it a fine press, and in fact I press more like this than like Pavel, but from what I understand the RKC standards, his excessive upper body motion would likely disqualify the lift.
1. the bell goes up.
2. the lift is not something else (push press, side press, jerk, etc.).
3. technique is consistent from one rep to the next. He's not making this up as he goes.
4. In the original RCK book, Pavel discusses, kicking the hip to the side and leaning lightly to displace the weight. In his photos he does this, though without a video (I don't own it), it's hard to tell if he is doing what VFed is doing here.
I'd call it a fine press, and in fact I press more like this than like Pavel, but from what I understand the RKC standards, his excessive upper body motion would likely disqualify the lift.
<blockquote cite="Steve Mathews">4. In the original RCK book, Pavel discusses, kicking the hip to the side and leaning lightly to displace the weight. In his photos he does this, though without a video (I don’t own it), it’s hard to tell if he is doing what VFed is doing here.</blockquote>
The Hard Style press features kicking the hip slightly to the side _before_ the press begins and keeping it in the same place as you press.
<blockquote cite="Jeff Steinberg">Setting aside any conjecture regarding the Beast Tamer Challenge (many smaller lifters press heavier bells with some kind of layback, myself included), I strongly suggest watching Fedorenko press, over and over and over. There aren’t a lot of high resolution videos out there of outstanding Olympic pressers, and while this technique probably isn’t the best for physique or coaching applications, if you are interested in the press as a pure performance lift, this video is probably as good as it gets.</blockquote>
Jeff Steinberg is a truly exceptional athlete so, even if I don't agree with what he says, I always read what he has to say - twice, sometimes. Jeff, for our purposes here on StrongFirst, I don't think we should set aside the Beast Tamer Challenge. This press wouldn't pass that test - that doesn't mean it's not a press, just that it's not a Hard Style press. In some of the strongman competitions I've seen, even a push-press is allowed when the event is called the Press and this press is a step in that direction. It's all good, it's all fine, and the athlete we're discussing is, without a doubt, exceptionally gifted, talented, well-practiced, and to be admired for all those things.
But it has been said, here and elsewhere by the Chief and by others, that one should first have strength before attempting to acquire other qualities like explosive strength - I agree with that 100%, and I would not teach the technique we're discussing except to an athlete ready to learn it, and I would not teach it as part of any Hard Style training instruction. I also would not try it myself because, with my back history, I consider it risky. Yes, I could start practicing it first with a light weight and work up to heavier, but I have no reason to do so - to be able to put up more weight than I can now by using that technique - shall we call it Twisty Press? - is just not on my personal goals list.
In brief, it's a strong lift but it uses a technique we choose not to teach here.
NB: I took a 1-day coach's training course with the athlete we're discussing, worked with his training methods myself for about six months, during which I also attended a second workshop, the latter with one of his senior instructors. It is an approach which I know works for some people but it did not work for me.
-S-
Steve Freides, StrongFirst Team Leader
http://www.kbnj.com
http://RideChickens.blogspot.com
The Hard Style press features kicking the hip slightly to the side _before_ the press begins and keeping it in the same place as you press.
<blockquote cite="Jeff Steinberg">Setting aside any conjecture regarding the Beast Tamer Challenge (many smaller lifters press heavier bells with some kind of layback, myself included), I strongly suggest watching Fedorenko press, over and over and over. There aren’t a lot of high resolution videos out there of outstanding Olympic pressers, and while this technique probably isn’t the best for physique or coaching applications, if you are interested in the press as a pure performance lift, this video is probably as good as it gets.</blockquote>
Jeff Steinberg is a truly exceptional athlete so, even if I don't agree with what he says, I always read what he has to say - twice, sometimes. Jeff, for our purposes here on StrongFirst, I don't think we should set aside the Beast Tamer Challenge. This press wouldn't pass that test - that doesn't mean it's not a press, just that it's not a Hard Style press. In some of the strongman competitions I've seen, even a push-press is allowed when the event is called the Press and this press is a step in that direction. It's all good, it's all fine, and the athlete we're discussing is, without a doubt, exceptionally gifted, talented, well-practiced, and to be admired for all those things.
But it has been said, here and elsewhere by the Chief and by others, that one should first have strength before attempting to acquire other qualities like explosive strength - I agree with that 100%, and I would not teach the technique we're discussing except to an athlete ready to learn it, and I would not teach it as part of any Hard Style training instruction. I also would not try it myself because, with my back history, I consider it risky. Yes, I could start practicing it first with a light weight and work up to heavier, but I have no reason to do so - to be able to put up more weight than I can now by using that technique - shall we call it Twisty Press? - is just not on my personal goals list.
In brief, it's a strong lift but it uses a technique we choose not to teach here.
NB: I took a 1-day coach's training course with the athlete we're discussing, worked with his training methods myself for about six months, during which I also attended a second workshop, the latter with one of his senior instructors. It is an approach which I know works for some people but it did not work for me.
-S-
Steve Freides, StrongFirst Team Leader
http://www.kbnj.com
http://RideChickens.blogspot.com
Physical Culture
Level 5 Valued Member
Steve- you wrote: "But it has been said, here and elsewhere by the Chief and by others, that one should first have strength before attempting to acquire other qualities like explosive strength – I agree with that 100%, and I would not teach the technique we’re discussing except to an athlete ready to learn it, and I would not teach it as part of any Hard Style training instruction."
Do you think that VFed could perform a strict, hardstyle press with this weight, if he were compelled to do so? I do. He can press for reps a bell which the RKC/SF community recognizes as a milestone for any man to perform a single with. I'm just reminded of the saying "everything that rises must converge." Fedorenko didn't train strength first, he trained explosive ability and strength endurance first, and now he seems to have gotten plenty strong. Someone who trains primarily for strength may reach the point of pressing the beast, but would not have the other qualities that VFed's training has produced.
Thoughts?
Do you think that VFed could perform a strict, hardstyle press with this weight, if he were compelled to do so? I do. He can press for reps a bell which the RKC/SF community recognizes as a milestone for any man to perform a single with. I'm just reminded of the saying "everything that rises must converge." Fedorenko didn't train strength first, he trained explosive ability and strength endurance first, and now he seems to have gotten plenty strong. Someone who trains primarily for strength may reach the point of pressing the beast, but would not have the other qualities that VFed's training has produced.
Thoughts?
Steve Mathews said, "Do you think that VFed could perform a strict, hardstyle press with this weight, if he were compelled to do so? I do. "
I agree. Anyone who can press 48 kg in that manner for ten reps each side can press it once in a way that we here would call strict.
Steve Mathews continued, "Fedorenko didn’t train strength first, he trained explosive ability and strength endurance first, and now he seems to have gotten plenty strong. Someone who trains primarily for strength may reach the point of pressing the beast, but would not have the other qualities that VFed’s training has produced.
"Thoughts?"
StrongFirst teaches teachers how to teach. As such, we impart principles of not only lifting but of lifting education. There are plenty of people who have trained qualities other than pure strength first and succeeded, as there are plenty who have attempted to train qualities other than pure strength first and failed through injury, boredom and whatever else.
I absolutely disagree that someone who has strictly pressed the Beast will not have explosive strength or strength endurance. When your limit strength goes up, at least until you reach a certain point (for adult males, roughly 6 times bodyweight for a powerlifitng 3-lift total), _everything_ goes up. Heck, even your ability to _relax_ improves.
We must differentiate, when necessary, between elite athletes and the rest of us. I have no doubt the person we're talking about could hit 6 times bodyweight in a powerlifting meet without ever training any of the lifts. But I often notice my walking companions in our little town here in New Jersey become out of breath as we walk up hills while I don't. That's because even at my level of strength - above average but not elite - _everything_ in life is so much easier because it represents a smaller percentage of the effort of which I am capable.
The Appendix of Pavel's, "HardStyle Abs" begins with a Marty Gallagher quotation, "I've never met a person with a 300-pound deadlift that didn't have more core strength than any of these pencil-necked fitness experts who endlessly proclaim the mystical benefits of more core." Put another way, you don't always need to train your abs to improve your ab strength. Put into a broader context, you don't necessarily have to directly train a physical attribute you seek.
It's important not to overlook this point - training for pure strength will yield more dividends for more people more of the time than any other method.
The guiding principle here is one in which I believe passionately, although I will have to leave it to others who know more than me to offer a kinesiological explanation. My knowledge is empirical and unequivocal: Strong First.
-S-
Steve Freides, StrongFirst Team Leader
http://www.kbnj.com
http://RiceChickens.blogspot.com
I agree. Anyone who can press 48 kg in that manner for ten reps each side can press it once in a way that we here would call strict.
Steve Mathews continued, "Fedorenko didn’t train strength first, he trained explosive ability and strength endurance first, and now he seems to have gotten plenty strong. Someone who trains primarily for strength may reach the point of pressing the beast, but would not have the other qualities that VFed’s training has produced.
"Thoughts?"
StrongFirst teaches teachers how to teach. As such, we impart principles of not only lifting but of lifting education. There are plenty of people who have trained qualities other than pure strength first and succeeded, as there are plenty who have attempted to train qualities other than pure strength first and failed through injury, boredom and whatever else.
I absolutely disagree that someone who has strictly pressed the Beast will not have explosive strength or strength endurance. When your limit strength goes up, at least until you reach a certain point (for adult males, roughly 6 times bodyweight for a powerlifitng 3-lift total), _everything_ goes up. Heck, even your ability to _relax_ improves.
We must differentiate, when necessary, between elite athletes and the rest of us. I have no doubt the person we're talking about could hit 6 times bodyweight in a powerlifting meet without ever training any of the lifts. But I often notice my walking companions in our little town here in New Jersey become out of breath as we walk up hills while I don't. That's because even at my level of strength - above average but not elite - _everything_ in life is so much easier because it represents a smaller percentage of the effort of which I am capable.
The Appendix of Pavel's, "HardStyle Abs" begins with a Marty Gallagher quotation, "I've never met a person with a 300-pound deadlift that didn't have more core strength than any of these pencil-necked fitness experts who endlessly proclaim the mystical benefits of more core." Put another way, you don't always need to train your abs to improve your ab strength. Put into a broader context, you don't necessarily have to directly train a physical attribute you seek.
It's important not to overlook this point - training for pure strength will yield more dividends for more people more of the time than any other method.
The guiding principle here is one in which I believe passionately, although I will have to leave it to others who know more than me to offer a kinesiological explanation. My knowledge is empirical and unequivocal: Strong First.
-S-
Steve Freides, StrongFirst Team Leader
http://www.kbnj.com
http://RiceChickens.blogspot.com
Kai Johnson
Level 2 Valued Member
VF is an amazing guy. It is not hard to believe that he would have no problem doing a single press using whatever standard after being able to do 20 (seriously.....TWENTY!) reps of a style that is still strict. A real feat of strength!
Physical Culture
Level 5 Valued Member
Thanks, Steve, for the explanation. This makes sense. As usual, you have given me lots to think about.
Jeff Steinberg
Level 1 Valued Member
Rickard,
Thanks - I enjoy doing it; it helps me remove some of the magic/mystique. Personally, the more I think about this type of thing while watching other people, the more conscious of what my body is doing while I'm lifting, also.
Steve,
-Jeff
Thanks - I enjoy doing it; it helps me remove some of the magic/mystique. Personally, the more I think about this type of thing while watching other people, the more conscious of what my body is doing while I'm lifting, also.
Steve,
I actually don't think of Fedorenko's training methods as some sort of guide to developing explosiveness. The man is naturally a coiled spring, and probably would've gotten very fast no matter what type of training methodology/sport he adopted. Even compared to the other top kettlebell sport competitors with whom I'm familiar, Fedorenko is quicker; his press start is faster than most guys' jerks. Some things you're just born with. In truth, his press really isn't all that much different from the way many of us press; he just executes at a speed few, if any, amongst us can match. For me, there's no real takeaway from that aspect.
-Jeff
- Status