Off-Topic CPAP & Alternatives

[BillSteamshovel]

Didnt want to hijack the other thread .....

@Hrungnir @ShawnM @Antii @Essexman You mentioned your CPAP machines in another thread

Have you had a red hot go at trying the alternatives ? ie things like ....

If I wear a backpack ($7.50) from Kmart stuffed with a 10 Litre Wine Cask Bladder full of air, it is absolutely impossible to rollover and sleep on my back therefore for me no apneas and minimal snoring. American soldiers discovered this hack during the civil war - legend says the enemy could no longer hear them snoring .... a nice story. Works if your apneas are posture dependant ie sidesleeper vs backsleeper

Mandibular splint - expensive but effective for many and not noisy definitely better than CPAP and no more expensive mine was $660 in subsidised AUstralian Health SYstem but usually $2000 full price and might let you sleep on your back

EPAP - - The opposite of CPAP approx $150 for Optipillow EPAP You breathe out against a resistance and this resistance creates a backup pressure that holds the airways open when you take the next breath. Works by using a nosepiece similar to some CPAP machines, again works for me - Took a bit of mucking about and experiments to get it working properly another brand is Bongo RX

Mouth Tape - Works for many, ridiculously cheap - forces nasal breathing - decreases my snoring but not my apneas

Lose Weight - I ran a survey on a sleep forum, losing weight and no alcohol came out as easy low hanging fruit for improving sleep and decreasing snores and apneas. Alcohol relaxes the throat muscles making them a bit more floppy and collapsible and fat in the throat is loose and floppy as well. - Personally I've never really liked that explanation, but weight loss and no alcohol certainly helped me- Ask your partner if you snore more after a few drinks.

The cure depends a lot upon what causes the snoring/apneas in the first place and this varies from person to person and different treatments suit different people.

 

[ShawnM]

Didnt want to hijack the other thread .....

@Hrungnir @ShawnM @Antii @Essexman You mentioned your CPAP machines in another thread

Have you had a red hot go at trying the alternatives ? ie things like ....

If I wear a backpack ($7.50) from Kmart stuffed with a 10 Litre Wine Cask Bladder full of air, it is absolutely impossible to rollover and sleep on my back therefore for me no apneas and minimal snoring. American soldiers discovered this hack during the civil war - legend says the enemy could no longer hear them snoring .... a nice story. Works if your apneas are posture dependant ie sidesleeper vs backsleeper

Mandibular splint - expensive but effective for many and not noisy definitely better than CPAP and no more expensive mine was $660 in subsidised AUstralian Health SYstem but usually $2000 full price and might let you sleep on your back

EPAP - - The opposite of CPAP approx $150 for Optipillow EPAP You breathe out against a resistance and this resistance creates a backup pressure that holds the airways open when you take the next breath. Works by using a nosepiece similar to some CPAP machines, again works for me - Took a bit of mucking about and experiments to get it working properly another brand is Bongo RX

Mouth Tape - Works for many, ridiculously cheap - forces nasal breathing - decreases my snoring but not my apneas

Lose Weight - I ran a survey on a sleep forum, losing weight and no alcohol came out as easy low hanging fruit for improving sleep and decreasing snores and apneas. Alcohol relaxes the throat muscles making them a bit more floppy and collapsible and fat in the throat is loose and floppy as well. - Personally I've never really liked that explanation, but weight loss and no alcohol certainly helped me- Ask your partner if you snore more after a few drinks.

The cure depends a lot upon what causes the snoring/apneas in the first place and this varies from person to person and different treatments suit different people.

I was prescribed a CPAP from the Veterans Administration when I retired and started receiving partial disability and because of the fact that I receive disability, part of which is for sleep apnea, I have to use a CPAP for at least 6 hours a night and for 28 days a month. The VA hasn't caught up with modern tech, and probably won't while I'm alive, so I am stuck with my machine.

Overall, it isn't horrible, just not that great.

 

[John K]

Lose Weight - I ran a survey on a sleep forum, losing weight and no alcohol came out as easy low hanging fruit for improving sleep and decreasing snores and apneas. Alcohol relaxes the throat muscles making them a bit more floppy and collapsible and fat in the throat is loose and floppy as well. - Personally I've never really liked that explanation, but weight loss and no alcohol certainly helped me- Ask your partner if you snore more after a few drinks.

I get sleep apnea when I am over about 215lbs. When I'm below 215lbs it goes away again.

I am not and never have been a snorer, apart from the occasional snort, or possibly when I'm sick.

I don't drink much or often, but it doesn't seem to effect any of that.

 

[lais817]

@BillSteamshovel Go get a didgeridoo mate, supposedly the best thing for it, tones the throat muscles right up! Can concur with the no grog bit too, makes a difference for both me and my mrs

 

[Hrungnir]

I think the correlation between snoring and apnea isn’t exact, my wife says I don’t snore but my sleep test had me at AHI of 38.

I am okay with the noise and the hose, but for some reason my nose itches like crazy when I wear it. I’m a mouth breather so I can’t handle the nasal pillows, I tried a couple different solutions to keep my mouth closed at night but they were far from comfortable.

 

[Antti]

Didnt want to hijack the other thread .....

@Hrungnir @ShawnM @Antii @Essexman You mentioned your CPAP machines in another thread

Have you had a red hot go at trying the alternatives ? ie things like ....

If I wear a backpack ($7.50) from Kmart stuffed with a 10 Litre Wine Cask Bladder full of air, it is absolutely impossible to rollover and sleep on my back therefore for me no apneas and minimal snoring. American soldiers discovered this hack during the civil war - legend says the enemy could no longer hear them snoring .... a nice story. Works if your apneas are posture dependant ie sidesleeper vs backsleeper

Mandibular splint - expensive but effective for many and not noisy definitely better than CPAP and no more expensive mine was $660 in subsidised AUstralian Health SYstem but usually $2000 full price and might let you sleep on your back

EPAP - - The opposite of CPAP approx $150 for Optipillow EPAP You breathe out against a resistance and this resistance creates a backup pressure that holds the airways open when you take the next breath. Works by using a nosepiece similar to some CPAP machines, again works for me - Took a bit of mucking about and experiments to get it working properly another brand is Bongo RX

Mouth Tape - Works for many, ridiculously cheap - forces nasal breathing - decreases my snoring but not my apneas

Lose Weight - I ran a survey on a sleep forum, losing weight and no alcohol came out as easy low hanging fruit for improving sleep and decreasing snores and apneas. Alcohol relaxes the throat muscles making them a bit more floppy and collapsible and fat in the throat is loose and floppy as well. - Personally I've never really liked that explanation, but weight loss and no alcohol certainly helped me- Ask your partner if you snore more after a few drinks.

The cure depends a lot upon what causes the snoring/apneas in the first place and this varies from person to person and different treatments suit different people.

Good ideas.

I don't really sleep on my back. I'm not sure how much of an effect it would have.

I have never thought of the splint or the EPAP. I'm not sure if there was some discussion on the option or not, but if there was, it was quickly dismissed. I have my CPAP through universal healthcare, it's all free to me. I can't remember there being other options than the machine, I know I was too obstructed for easy surgery.

I haven' tried the tape. I'm never a mouth breather consciously, and I don't think I wake up as a mouth breather. Does it still happen? I don't know.

I haven't noticed my bodyweight influence my sleep apnea, even if the bodyweight has changed a lot.

Alcohol makes my apnea worse, and at times appears I'm not so good with the machine either when I've had a few too many.

 

[Denys Carthusian]

If you listen to the Gray Brecka Ultimate Human podcast with Dana White as guest, Dana claims that Brecka and his team cured him of sleep apnea. The exact way that happened wasn't clear as I didn't listen to the whole thing. With that said, I use a Sinu Pulse nasal irrigator and plain saline rinses (with xylitol) to clean up chronic sinus problems that mean I am now a constant nasal breather, even at night (thanks to mouth tape).

 

[silveraw]

Didnt want to hijack the other thread .....

@Hrungnir @ShawnM @Antii @Essexman You mentioned your CPAP machines in another thread

Have you had a red hot go at trying the alternatives ? ie things like ....

If I wear a backpack ($7.50) from Kmart stuffed with a 10 Litre Wine Cask Bladder full of air, it is absolutely impossible to rollover and sleep on my back therefore for me no apneas and minimal snoring. American soldiers discovered this hack during the civil war - legend says the enemy could no longer hear them snoring .... a nice story. Works if your apneas are posture dependant ie sidesleeper vs backsleeper

Mandibular splint - expensive but effective for many and not noisy definitely better than CPAP and no more expensive mine was $660 in subsidised AUstralian Health SYstem but usually $2000 full price and might let you sleep on your back

EPAP - - The opposite of CPAP approx $150 for Optipillow EPAP You breathe out against a resistance and this resistance creates a backup pressure that holds the airways open when you take the next breath. Works by using a nosepiece similar to some CPAP machines, again works for me - Took a bit of mucking about and experiments to get it working properly another brand is Bongo RX

Mouth Tape - Works for many, ridiculously cheap - forces nasal breathing - decreases my snoring but not my apneas

Lose Weight - I ran a survey on a sleep forum, losing weight and no alcohol came out as easy low hanging fruit for improving sleep and decreasing snores and apneas. Alcohol relaxes the throat muscles making them a bit more floppy and collapsible and fat in the throat is loose and floppy as well. - Personally I've never really liked that explanation, but weight loss and no alcohol certainly helped me- Ask your partner if you snore more after a few drinks.

The cure depends a lot upon what causes the snoring/apneas in the first place and this varies from person to person and different treatments suit different people.

I’m most comfortable on my back but side sleep to reduce snoring. Probably the most effective thing I do right now. Don’t really wear a pack. It does cause issues camping though. Ground pads aren’t nice on the shoulder.

Mouth tape, I already am a nasal breather. Didn’t really do anything for me. Of everything I tried this was the least invasive and comfortable. Really wish it worked for me. (3m micropore)

I’ve tried a few of those mouthpieces that move your jaw forward, after a night I threw it in the trash. The jaw pain was a bit much. Maybe the professional versions lessen it a bit, but I’ve read a few horror stories about it so the issue seems fairly common. Admittedly it did work, but the long term dental issues risks were not for me. (Snore RX)

The tounge mouthpiece was wildly uncomfortable. Didn’t make it more than an hour with it in. Seemed to help a lot though. Couldn’t snore if I tried with that thing. (Those mouthpieces that look like a mushroom)

Ive tried those nasal resistance patches too, they resist air on exhale but allow inhale. Didn’t really do much for me. (Don’t recall the brand somo-something maybe)

Finally getting a sleep study done, kinda out of trying OTC remedies at this point.

I imagine if I lost another 30lbs it would help a bunch.

nasal irrigator

I use the nielmed sinus rise, godsave during allergy season. Paired with breathe right strips helps with night time congestion a ton. I stay away from antihistamines as much as I can.

 

[BillSteamshovel]

Couple of other alternatives - remember Dan John "Your Mileage May Vary" and Strongfirst "It Depends"

1. Buzzers :
Various devices that attach to chest, forehead or neck aimed at backnsnorers/backapneas they vibrate or give tiny electric shock when you lie on your back - a great but slightly flawed idea.
If something starts annoying buzzing on my chest "Sleepy_Bill" simply rips it off and throws it to the far corner of the room without coming properly awake.
I eventually made mine work by making a fairly complicated harness that was impossible to remove whilst half asleep.

2. Electrical Throat Muscle stimulation - A few different types out there - ie a wire under the tongue, a pad worn between point of chin and neck - they work by tightening the relevant muscles which prevent tongue from flopping backwards and blocking the throat

Some of these gadgets in 1 and 2 above are activated when they hear snores some are activated by very small gravity switches

3. Special pillows ie wedges so that your back is inclined work for some folk

I think the correlation between snoring and apnea isn’t exact, my wife says I don’t snore but my sleep test had me at AHI of 38.

Thats spot on right - if you snore loud and strong then there is a 40% chance you will also have some apneas but it is also possible to have apneas and not snore ie the correlation is "one way"

@BillSteamshovel Go get a didgeridoo mate, supposedly the best thing for it, tones the throat muscles right up! Can concur with the no grog bit too, makes a difference for both me and my mrs

I did that & comfortably held a note for 15 minutes probably longer is possible but that was my initial target and didn't bother going further. I think the good players can go for aaaages.

Singing and playing wind instruments and vocal & throat exercises seem to work for some people but none of them work for me (YMMV & It Depends), but it was great fun learning how to make noises on the didgeridoo and get the circular breathing working.

Buteyko breathing is reputed to help some people.

 

[BillSteamshovel]

The tounge mouthpiece was wildly uncomfortable. Didn’t make it more than an hour with it in. Seemed to help a lot though. Couldn’t snore if I tried with that thing. (Those mouthpieces that look like a mushroom)

They are a very cheap solution if they work for you.

I peresevered with these and eventually became comfortable with them. Took a long time. Wear them for a few hours during the day helps. Very effective for me but results are random because if sleeping on my back I can accidentally pull my tongue out in the middle of the night and then it is snores and apneas. Sometimes it stays in all night sometimes tongue falls out.

I wear the "flaps" outside my lips and tape them to my face. Currently trying to find an extra strong one that prevents tongue from coming out..

 

[Antti]

I'm curious, what kind of problems do you have with the machine that it's not the easiest option?

I suppose they even have ones with batteries?

 

[Essexman]

Around eight years ago in my late 40s I was diagnosed with obstructive sleep apnea and prescribed CPAP. This was after many months of my wife complaining of me snoring very loudly. Even my children complained I would wake them from the other side of the house. My wife took to sleeping on the sofa, it really was not a good stage in our relationship due to the stress incurred from the situation. I was constantly tired, but with children and a busy life I just thought that was part of getting older. I used to regularly wake in the morning feeling ill with a headache, similar to a hangover.

At first I struggled to get on with the mask, it took me months to learn to sleep with it on all night. Often, I would (and still do) wake in the morning having taken it off in my sleep.

On my second visit to the sleep clinic the nurse took my weight, height etc. I was 90kg. Something clicked in my head, I’d never been that heavy before. So I changed my eating habits, changed my exercise routine, found kettlebells, found yoga. A year later I was down to 74kg
(down 16kg/35lbs). I’ve managed to stay around 75kg until the end of last year, up to 80kg, currently working on getting a few kg down.

Four years ago, I did “Dry January”, I didn’t drink much before so it wasn’t much of a change. Continued into February, and I’ve not had an alcoholic drink since. I knew from my wife that even just one drink made my snoring worse.

On my last sleep study (with no CPAP) it was found that I no longer have sleep apnea. Ironically, I now find it hard to get a good nights sleep without the CPAP. It would seem my brain and body associate going to sleep with the CPAP. So, with the sleep doctors advice we have been slowly reducing the pressure level, then the plan is to reduce the CPAP use with a view to coming off it altogether. When I asked the doctor “how do we wean me off the CPAP?”, he replied “I don’t know, I’ve never had a patient have to do that before!”.

For anyone struggling with the mask I would suggest trying different types. I have a standard full face mask. Bit there are some that only cover the nose, some very small types.

Sleep apnoea - NHS (www.nhs.uk)

 

[Christophe]

I have some experience with the cpap. Losing weight did the trick for me to not need it anymore. Until then, I think the cpap is your best friend.
Of course it also depends on how much fat you carry. Some persons unfortunately have obstructive sleep apnea already at low weight/BF.
For me that was not the case.

 

[BillSteamshovel]

I'm curious, what kind of problems do you have with the machine that it's not the easiest option?

I suppose they even have ones with batteries?

For me, when they fitted one in hospital the pressure required was like a tornado boring out my throat, the specialist sleep doctor admitted that the pressure needed to stop the apneas was unusually high. Also the focus on cpap as the only solution was quite puzzling, very narrow minded, get a cpap, thats it, go away do it. There was no treatment of the patient as an individual (ie no aknowledgement that YMMV or "It depends") it was like a factory line set up to get as many people as possible happily paired to a cpap. At the time they were also horrendously expensive, especially for a pensioner. Did not want to become addicted to a machine.

I realise and understand that for many people they work extremely well.

People have told me that the machines are also quite noisy and disturb others in the bedroom and in adjacent rooms and that care and attention to maintenance and cleaning can be bothersome. Also inflexible unable to travel although I believe that has changed nowadays.

 

[John K]

For me, when they fitted one in hospital the pressure required was like a tornado boring out my throat, the specialist sleep doctor admitted that the pressure needed to stop the apneas was unusually high. Also the focus on cpap as the only solution was quite puzzling, very narrow minded, get a cpap, thats it, go away do it. There was no treatment of the patient as an individual (ie no aknowledgement that YMMV or "It depends") it was like a factory line set up to get as many people as possible happily paired to a cpap. At the time they were also horrendously expensive, especially for a pensioner. Did not want to become addicted to a machine.

I realise and understand that for many people they work extremely well.

People have told me that the machines are also quite noisy and disturb others in the bedroom and in adjacent rooms and that care and attention to maintenance and cleaning can be bothersome. Also inflexible unable to travel although I believe that has changed nowadays.

There’s an ethical dilemma in medicine. Prescribing a (better) treatment that you know won’t be followed is less ethical than a (worse) treatment plan that is easier to be followed. Compliance in general is very low, even with very simple treatment options (eg take one pill a day), and is almost nonexistent with more difficult ones (eg non insulin dependent diabetic diet control).

 

[Zwuckel]

I didn´t even know that there are so much different alternatives. None of those were discussed in my case. Not even the cause. Great thread, I should follow that up.

I think my main cause is, that I have a stuffy nose. (I hope that´s the right term.) Even at daytime. Or my nose is too small. I guess i had my condition for the last 10 years, which would explain sleeping duration up to 12 hours on weekdays. So I´ll probably try something like @Denys Carthusian wrote.

I got mine last year. It´s a modern AirSense 11 and some "active" mask where I can change postions and have a low to mid pressure setting, as more pressure leads to central breathing stops. It´s almost silent, comes with a case for travel and cleaning is daily nosepiece under 3 minutes and once a week the hole tube which is maybe 15 minutes max.

Sometimes I sleep 8 hours with it, sometimes I get incredibly irritated and put it off after 2 or 3 hours.

 

[Antti]

For me, when they fitted one in hospital the pressure required was like a tornado boring out my throat, the specialist sleep doctor admitted that the pressure needed to stop the apneas was unusually high. Also the focus on cpap as the only solution was quite puzzling, very narrow minded, get a cpap, thats it, go away do it. There was no treatment of the patient as an individual (ie no aknowledgement that YMMV or "It depends") it was like a factory line set up to get as many people as possible happily paired to a cpap. At the time they were also horrendously expensive, especially for a pensioner. Did not want to become addicted to a machine.

I realise and understand that for many people they work extremely well.

People have told me that the machines are also quite noisy and disturb others in the bedroom and in adjacent rooms and that care and attention to maintenance and cleaning can be bothersome. Also inflexible unable to travel although I believe that has changed nowadays.

I realize that the machines are not perfect for everyone. It's great that there are so many options these days.

On the other hand, I wish people wouldn't be too scared of the machine or reluctant to give it a good try.

I didn´t even know that there are so much different alternatives. None of those were discussed in my case. Not even the cause. Great thread, I should follow that up.

I think my main cause is, that I have a stuffy nose. (I hope that´s the right term.) Even at daytime. Or my nose is too small. I guess i had my condition for the last 10 years, which would explain sleeping duration up to 12 hours on weekdays. So I´ll probably try something like @Denys Carthusian wrote.

I got mine last year. It´s a modern AirSense 11 and some "active" mask where I can change postions and have a low to mid pressure setting, as more pressure leads to central breathing stops. It´s almost silent, comes with a case for travel and cleaning is daily nosepiece under 3 minutes and once a week the hole tube which is maybe 15 minutes max.

Sometimes I sleep 8 hours with it, sometimes I get incredibly irritated and put it off after 2 or 3 hours.

I have narrow airways. When I was younger I had a permanently stuffy nose, winter and summer. And I've always been very sensitive to strong smells and the like.

 

[BillSteamshovel]

I promise this is my last post in this thread. I have met people in sleep forums who have claimed this works for them. So I put it here for your consideration.

It is a variation on exercising tongue and throat muscles - ie in the same basket as singing, didgeridoo, tongue gymnastics, etc

Snoring Cure & Solutions | Dream Sipper

Science has found a solution & cure for snoring: The new dream sipper combines proven stop snoring methods from key clinical studies.

www.dreamsipper.com

I have one and use it but I cannot say whether or not is has had any effect on me. YMMV & It Depends

 

[Anna C]

Diagnosed with mild sleep apnea 3.5 years ago with a sleep study. Got a CPAP machine with the nose pillow and mouth tape. Sleep much better now. I often wake up 4-6 hours into the night and take it off, sleeping another 2-3 hours without it. That seems OK too, but I'm quite sure my sleep in the first part of the night is better with the machine. I used to frequently have dreams about drowning or otherwise feel my limbs tingly with lack of oxygen, and sleep was frequently interrupted. I sometimes wonder if we get some Buteyko benefits while sleeping, haha. Slightly hypoxic for repeated intervals. But really, can't be good, especially for sleep cycles. I feel much more rested these days since I got it than I did in the years prior.

 

[IMayAgainKnowChris]

Big fan of the mouth tape here. New to it, maybe 2 weeks in. But I'm definitely sleeping better.