Kettlebell Criticize "my" AGT program

[Pasibrzuch]

Hello everybody,
after reaching my Timeless Solid goal about 1 year ago I decided to go the strong endurance path. I finished 12 week of 033, then ~6 months of A+A snatching @32kg, and finally12 weeks of 044 @28kg. Now, I decided to risk a little bit and instead of doing a tried and true program I went for creating something that's an amalgamate of what I pieced together reading this forum and some articles by Joel Jamieson. I would be extremely grateful for any critique.

Goals: The rough template I used for this program is said to increase alactic capacity with the caveat that it's the least trainable attribute. It also should help mitorespiration.

Template:
Week 1:
The Hard Day:
10 sets of 5 snatches @32kg EMOM
8-10 mins break
10 sets of 1 snatch and 4 jerks @28kg EMOM
8-10 mins break
10 sets of 5 cleans @2x28kg EMOM

Medium Day: the hard day but without heavy cleans, some easy strength bentpresses and squats
Light Day: only snatches + some bentpresses and squats

Week 2: Increase the number of sets in every exercises to 12
Week 3: repeat week 1
Week 4: repeat week 2
Week 5: repeat week 1
Week 6 repeat week 2

That's basically it. So it's Joel Jamieson's alactic capacity protocol with kettlebell exercises and hardstyle waviness applied.
This is what the hard day looks like on a HR graph:


As you can see cleans are pretty intense but I still managed to maintain nasal breathing.

Some doubts I have:
1. Is the recovery between sets sufficient? Isn't there too much glycolisis? I manage to stay powerful throughout all sets. Breathing may get more intense, but certainly not chaotic
2. Do you think 2 days a week would be enough if I also do 2x easy jogging and 3x Muay Thai (now usually at home, a+a-ish, heavy bag and double end bag)?

I can't wait to hear your opinions!

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Run it for about 3-4 weeks then take notes of changes and how you feel week by week.

If you feel you are not recovering enough, strip down to less total work

 

[Anna C]

Really interesting protocol you have there. I'm not sure I would call it AGT, but it does manage and limit glycolysis to some degree, and that's really all the rest of the AGT programs do. They just usually hold it back a bit more than yours. You are spending 10 minute blocks with your heart rate pretty high, between 140-180, BUT there are periods of rest in there during each minute that HR is partially recovering, which is similar to Q&D during each series.

The amount of glycolytic training one can handle and absorb has a lot to do with your individual physiology; how much slow twitch (oxidative) muscle fiber you have, how well you recover from training stress and stress in general, and many other things. To me, the rate that your HR does drop between your series AND how low it drops both suggest that you're pretty fit aerobically and that helps absorb the stress. If your HR stayed 120-130 while resting that would suggest to me that your body is still dealing with clearing metabolic by products of excessive glycolysis. (I see this happen for myself when I do Airdyne bike intervals of 20 seconds all out every 2 minutes... which is part of why I quit doing them. That, and they're no fun .) (BTW is that active rest (walking, fast & loose), or literally sitting and resting between the series?) Also the fact that your 3 series look similar -- the last one is not way higher overall than the first -- suggests good design and good response.

As you can see cleans are pretty intense but I still managed to maintain nasal breathing.

Nasal breathing is a very good sign. Curious about a few other things -- do you feel burning in the muscles? What is your activity between each repeat? Do you ever feel localized fatigue, such as forearm/grip? Is your recovery breathing fast, or deep and slow? Can you talk at all between repeats or are you gasping for breath? How long does it take you to be able to pass a legit talk test after each series? Does your rep speed ever slow down? How did you feel the next day? Did you get any low energy periods or carb cravings after training and later in the day, or did your energy stay pretty even? These can all give good clues about whether the glycolysis is too much.

Some doubts I have:
1. Is the recovery between sets sufficient? Isn't there too much glycolisis? I manage to stay powerful throughout all sets. Breathing may get more intense, but certainly not chaotic
2. Do you think 2 days a week would be enough if I also do 2x easy jogging and 3x Muay Thai (now usually at home, a+a-ish, heavy bag and double end bag)?

Looks to me like it is sufficient. Long rests between series is a good idea, even though HR is recovered in less time than you're giving it. The "isn't there too much glycolysis" should be covered by the questions above --but I'm thinking it's not too much; for you, and for this particular session, anyway. (That can actually vary quite a bit -- if you did this same session in a less recovered state, you'd have more glycolysis.) As for 2 vs. 3 days per week, depends how intense your Muay Thai practice is. If that's easy-ish and you're not pushing it, than your 3x/week of this can be your main stimulus. If it is also providing some training stress as opposed to just easy practice, then I'd go with 2x/week.

 

[Justin_M]

You are spending 10 minute blocks with your heart rate pretty high, between 140-180, BUT there are periods of rest in there during each minute that HR is partially recovering, which is similar to Q&D during each series.

To piggy back off this a little, Q&D research also suggests working effort capped at 30 seconds and it even further breaks that down into clusters of 7-15 seconds depending on if it is 5/4 or 10/2.

What I see above looks a lot more like a heart rate graph from lactate threshold cruise intervals. Here is an example of those tempo intervals with a 5:1 work:rest.


What you have also mimics VO2 max intervals using 1:1 work to rest that look like these:

 

[wespom9]

I tend to like Joel Jamieson's stuff. Can you link to some of the articles you used for inspiration?

@Anna C has some really good points and @Justin_M just did as well regarding the fact it looks a little more like LT2 or V02 max work periods

@Pasibrzuch - how do the final 3-4 sets of the series feel? Are you getting the same power output? EDIT: just saw you said power was maintained
Pavel does mention, and I don't have it offhand but I have seen other research that suggests the same, that 30s of work in a series is going to be the limit for maintaining power. You're likely around 45s-1min per series, although the W:R rest is low.

 

[Pasibrzuch]

@Anna C that's a very thorough review - thank you for taking time to write. I really appreciate that whatever I ask you are always there to help.
Answering your questions:

(BTW is that active rest (walking, fast & loose), or literally sitting and resting between the series?

actively walking, fast and loose, then some vision exercises from Z Health (check the youtube channel if you're interested, great stuff), I try to make my breathing minimal. I'm thinking about doing some chess riddles in between to work on my mental clarity during stress
From what I've noticed my recovery after repeats improves only from additional cardio work, not from a+a-ish work itself.

do you feel burning in the muscles?

to some degree during the cleans, there's a little bit of biceps pump going on. Snatches and jerks - no, but it feels like I'm on the verge. All the series feel like "Oh my god, this is going to be terrible" but the moment of it being actually terrible never comes.

Can you talk at all between repeats or are you gasping for breath?

I'm certain I wouldn't be able to talk immediately after the repeat. Maybe close to the end of the minute, but not with difficulty. Each repeat I feel 'sort-of-ready'

Did you get any low energy periods or carb cravings after training and later in the day, or did your energy stay pretty even?

When I do three series - yes, I'm pretty tired and need to lie down for a bit, carb cravings are also present. 1-2 series - no problem.

Does your rep speed ever slow down?

no, but i think I slightly (I mean it, slightly) compensate in technique. For example my snatch is more girevoy-sport-ish during the last two repeats. Cleans are a little bit uglier close to the end of the series. But not cross-fit ugly

how do the final 3-4 sets of the series feel? Are you getting the same power output? EDIT: just saw you said power was maintained
Pavel does mention, and I don't have it offhand but I have seen other research that suggests the same, that 30s of work in a series is going to be the limit for maintaining power. You're likely around 45s-1min per series, although the W:R rest is low.

@wespom9 , thank you, I didn't know about the importance of the total power work time. My working time during a single the repeat is ~15 seconds, so it's even 2:30. Would you suggest cutting down on sets and increasing the number of series?

 

[wespom9]

@wespom9 , thank you, I didn't know about the importance of the total power work time. My working time during a single the repeat is ~15 seconds, so it's even 2:30. Would you suggest cutting down on sets and increasing the number of series?

Well hey, if it's working....."things are going so well, help me screw it up!"

These are guidelines, not hard and fast rules. in Q&D Pavel said 30s of work/series, 2:30 total work for power exercises (per muscle groups used - that's why 033 has 200 total reps but split between swing/pushup). However, that's in general. Sometimes your volume can go higher for building capacity, sometimes lower for maintenance. In Al's "Simple to Serious Endurance" article it slowly builds to 30+ minutes of reps OTM. I wouldn't do that high of volume all the time, but volume solidifies strength.
I'd follow @Mark Limbaga and try it, see how you feel and report back.

 

[Pasibrzuch]

@wespom9
yes, I see I have a tendency to get too much anxious about "proper" guidelines and numbers. Thank you.
To answer the question from your previous post: rough guidelines of this protocol are in his books, but it's only a very general template: 10-12 sets of 2-3 series, 8-10 minutes break in between, 2-3 times a week. Reps must be done full power and hard to some degree. No waving or specific exercises mentioned . There's more space left to the behind-the-scenes of different energy systems and their importance for fighters. The protocol part is very general, and (subjective opinion) quite chaotic.

Now I checked the book and he also mentions that this protocol should be "mentally challenging" and that in last repeats "you might be slowing down" (emphasis added by me).

 

[Anna C]

From what I've noticed my recovery after repeats improves only from additional cardio work, not from a+a-ish work itself.

Yes, I think most long-time [A+A] + [LSD cardio] practitioners would agree with this observation.

to some degree during the cleans, there's a little bit of biceps pump going on. Snatches and jerks - no, but it feels like I'm on the verge. All the series feel like "Oh my god, this is going to be terrible" but the moment of it being actually terrible never comes.

Great description, and sounds just right for some AGT protocols (the ones that go beyond A+A).

The rest of your descriptions all sound "right" to me for Strength Endurance / AGT training.

 

[Steve W.]

Week 1:
The Hard Day:
10 sets of 5 snatches @32kg EMOM
8-10 mins break
10 sets of 1 snatch and 4 jerks @28kg EMOM
8-10 mins break
10 sets of 5 cleans @2x28kg EMOM

I'm just happy to see someone else doing double cleans as a standalone ballistic drill. There are a few of us, but IMO this is one of the most underutilized and underappreciated things that can be done with KBs.

 

[John Grahill]

@Steve W. , +1 to that! The double clean is a great stand alone workout as is!

 

[Pasibrzuch]

yes, double clean is a great movement. I don't believe in 1:1 carryover from kettlebell movements into martial arts movements, but it feels like "wrestling with the bell(s)" indeed.

 

[Pasibrzuch]

Mission failure.
It's been quite some time since I posted this, but I think it may serve future generations, so here's some update:

The program appeared to be too demanding, at least for me. It was unfeasible to recover with additional Muay Thai and basement tempos sessions. All the more, I cannot imaging running it now, when my group Muay Thai trainings of very high intesity are back.
After a few weeks I substituted it with quasi-a+a. Here's the graph to illustrate it:


So what I chose to do was do a powerful 5 snatches and recover to 130bpm. Three possibilites of volume: 100, 80, 60, determined by a die roll. The time I manage to complete the whole session indicates how aerobically fit I'm at the moment.
Such a protocol is followed by waves of strength bent presses and kettlebell front squats. Recovery friendly, doable with high intensity martial arts. I alternate it with q&d 044, six week blocks.
If somebody ever wants to use this template, I'll be honored.

 

[LarryB]

Awesome job man! I love reading other people’s experiences. The original program sounded dope, but like most of us our plans are too ambitious for our bodies.