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Kettlebell Dice Rolled Training Article - Perfectly Timed

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I'd also say it's effective for intermediate and advanced (not elite, however) lifters. Also, what's the problem with not putting that much mental effort into one's programming?

Effective For Intermediates and Advance

Yes, for General Physical Prepardness Training for Recovery and just to take a break, physically and mentally.

Anyone who follows a program written by someone else is essentially not thinking. I think that is okay, especially for those who don't spend all their lives in the gym, unlike you and I.

Program Written By Someone Else

Novice Lifter follow written program because they lack knowledge. A well written program article should explain the why and how; same with coaching. It should be an education process.

Teaching them as you go amount to the biblical story of, "Teaching a man to fish rather than giving him a fish".

Teaching someone to "Fish" allows them to become independent.

Kenny Croxdale
 
Hello,

Science based approaches sure works. However, body listening approaches. For isntance, when tired, we can reduce the volume / intensity / frequency.

I think that on the long term, overthinking the training is one of the surest way to be blocked because there is no "perfect" workout which works everytime, for everybody. 80/20 rule : 20% of effort for 80% of the result

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
@kennycro@@aol.com
Baffled

And how does that qualify your in this area?

The human body is a system. The training stimulus is the input and the weight lifted at the end of the training cycle is the output. System theory is what my thoughts are based on, as applied to the human body. Whether you study glucose level regulation, heart beat generation, cancer growth, or physical training, the basic principles are the same. That's what system theory is about: being able to make assertions about a system using general principles. If you read my post, it's all based on system theory (hidden variables, control, feedback,...). Not mentioned, I also studied physiology, biochemistry, etc... Again, I don't want to win "by authority", and you probably would such a contest, just saying that I'm not pulling these ideas out of thin air.

That said, I understand your point of view that complete randomness is probably a stupid idea and your post makes sense. It seems that we say the same thing mostly except for one single issue: you think that adding some randomness is a bad idea, I say that it's unlikely to be that bad. The only way to know would be to take a group of trainees, split them randomly into two groups and have one group follow a non-random program and have another one follow a program in which there is some randomness. See who makes the most progress after 3 or 6 months. I'm all for data also. I may be completely wrong and if the data shows that I am, so be it. If you know of any similar study, I would be interested in reading them. I emphasize again that I am not for complete utter randomness, and am not even saying that randomness is necessarily better, just that some random variability is probably not as bad a thing as you think it is.

Your reasoning seems based on the fact that following one type of plan, a plan in which there is no randomness, leads to success, and that therefore, following a plan in which there is an element of randomness cannot lead to success. If you have a good argument as to why this is true, or the studies to prove it, I would be happy to hear it. I am repeating myself, but randomness is to be within some margin. I'm not talking doing a WOD crossfit style with a different movement each day.
 
Thank you for your reply!

Well, the proof is probably in eating the pudding. However, I am still having a hard time believing that everyone will be able to switch completely to the next heavier bell. Say you managed 10x10 OH swings in 5 minutes with a 32 kg on a testing day. If you step up to swings with the 36 kg and roll a 6 you are up to 200 swings with a new weight. From your experience: Are people able to handle that amount of volume? Or do they have to adjust? I mean, for the grinds you have built in a safety switch, namely the adjusted number of lifts per session.

Btw, I have had the same question in my head when I read Pavel's article on waving the volume for S&S.

It does seem scary to increase that much. I've been there for sure! But think about the density. How quickly does that "burn" build up when you swing 32 100 times in 5 minutes versus doing it in 10 minutes? It's a WAY different thing. That's why being able to swing 36 is highly probable.

One option to try: if you've started swinging 36 after completing 100 swings in 5 minutes with 32, would be to reduce the reps per set. Instead of starting with 10, maybe your first 4 weeks, you do some sets of 5. Over time, reduce the rest periods and then up the reps when you feel comfortable (but then your rest periods go back up to the top of the minute). Make sense?
 
Hello,

Regarding total randomness, I used to do it for a while. It was really feeling based and totally depended on what my body told me to do, be it cardio training or strength training, or strength-endurance. I followed this method during a 6 weeks cycle.

I mixed bells, bands, calisthenics.

In the end, I did not lose any of my "maximal abilities" (maximal weight I could lift, maximal number of reps, etc...). However, I improved my body composition faster than ever (no modification of eating habits, or habits in general). Basically, it makes me well rounded while having a lot of fun, which is different to create a very standardized and disciplined routine (which is also good of course).

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
I like the idea of not knowing what you're going to do till you show up, but I also like the idea of mental prep for whatever's on the menu that day.

I approach w/ somewhat different mindset HIIT, Iso, high load resistance, metcon/HICT.
 
I think the need for variability and autoregulation is overemphasized.

Coan & co managed to write out complete training cycles beforehand and never miss a rep in training. And the results were spectacular. Of course, it took time to learn how to plan like that, but I'm pretty sure they didn't learn it by throwing dice.

Now, throwing the dice within a tight enough template should work out to a reasonable medium in the long run. But I'm worried if the run is too long. How many sessions did Pavel say a good training program lasts for? 10-20?

I can understand the desire for variety and wanting to take the scenic route, like said. Myself, I thoroughly enjoy training and like to do more than the minimum effective dose, if that even exists. But luckily I can also do it effectively. Just a little while ago I talked with an older gentleman who complained about his bench press. I asked him what kind of programming he follows. None. Random. Based on feel. He felt it was good enough. He liked his bench with two plates. I asked if he wouldn't mind progressing, spending the same time as before, doing the lift he loves, but spending his training time more effectively? It's not like it usually even takes more effort. And with the vast amounts of free and good programs available these days, it doesn't really take anything else than picking one and following it or listening to someone with more experience for some minutes.
 
Now, throwing the dice within a tight enough template should work out to a reasonable medium in the long run. But I'm worried if the run is too long. How many sessions did Pavel say a good training program lasts for? 10-20?

10 to 20 sessions may be true for some programs, but there are exceptions, S&S, Easy Strength, etc. Plus Arryn said he based it off easy strength + plan strong. it rings true to me (limited experience but it had the sharp variety in load and volume.) I wouldn't be sure that it would be limited in its effect.
 
It seems that we say the same thing mostly except for one single issue: you think that adding some randomness is a bad idea, I say that it's unlikely to be that bad.

Not So

I never said that randomness is a completely bad idea. I provide the parameters.

Your reasoning seems based on the fact that following one type of plan, a plan in which there is no randomness, leads to success, and that therefore, following a plan in which there is an element of randomness cannot lead to success

Non-Linear Periodization Training

The fact that I am an advocate of Non-Linear Periodization Training and as I noted, have employed is before it was termed that demonstrate that I am a proponent of NOT following on Plan. I am an advocate of Understanding the concept of the General Adaptation Syndrome.

I am an advocate of Dr Michael Zourdos' research setting aside specific days for Hypertrophy, Power and Limit Strength Training. I have hammered that in multiple post.

I have provided research information on "Varying Exercise" as a mean of increasing muscle mass, strength, power, etc.

It's NOT About Following ONE Plan

To re-re-reinterate it, it comes down to Understanding Training Concepts in regard on how write a effective training program and properly executing it.

It come down to knowing the rules and when they can and need to be broken. A great example of that is Power Training. The rule is that it need to be performed first in a program.

However, one of the exception to the rule is Post Activation Potentiation Training. I have briefly post information on this, as well.

I am a proponent of Understanding Training Concepts; how to utilize training protocols to elicit a better training effect and reach your objective.

Something's Better Than Nothing

Random chaos amount to, "Even a blind pig will eventually find an apple." It amounts to driving aimlessly around and hoping you get lucky. As they say in Vegas, "Your chances are Slim and None, and Slim is out of town.

To reiterate, I provided some parameters for those who have an objective.

I understand your point of view that complete randomness is probably a stupid idea

Your Background

You are a smart guy. However, what little background you mentioned in in this post nor your other post indicate you have limited knowledge in this area and even less in practical application.

There's plenty of research data out there on this; which amount to "Second Hand Information".

To really comprehend it, you need to gain first hand practical experience.

Essentially, you are coaching a game you have never played.

One of the key elements of Coaching is you need to have played the game.

The Take Home Point

Learning is based on repetition. With the in mind, let me repeat this again. I provided some parameters for those who have an objective regarding a Random Training Program. When performed within the confines of those parameter, it has a place.

A steady diet of Random Training amount taking a trip without mapping it out.

My Plan

This topic has been exhausted. Nothings going to change at this point.

So, rather than continuing to go randomly around in a never ending circle on it; it time to move on.

Now that's a Plan. :)

Kenny Croxdale
 
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I think that on the long term, overthinking the training is one of the surest way to be blocked because there is no "perfect" workout...

Overthinking

This is driven by insecurity. An individual question their own decision.

Kenny Croxdale
 
@kennycro@@aol.com okay so full disclosure most legitimate sceintific/meta analysis journals entries may as well be in latin (I don't speak latin in case you were wondering). but my understanding is that Dr. Zourdos recommends a split of Hypertrophy, Power and Strength. Correct me if im missing something important.

my understanding is hypertrophy occurs from total volume and appropriate amounts of food. Power move something heavy fast, Strength move something Really heavy.

In the dice program your getting Swings (power), grinds that with 4/6th of your time spent with 70%+of your 1rm (strength) and total weekly volume could be quite hight (160-500 weekly swings, between 30 and 120 per grind lift, for hypertrophy needs). the varied intensity allows for deloads without planning them. wouldn't that cover the Dr. Zourdos' desired attributes and just be another way to skin a cat as it were?
 
Forums, being what they are, and the effects of social media, being what they are, produce here less effective communication rather than better.

If you, as the author of a post, decide to comment as if you’re texting or twittering—in that abbreviated manner—you’re very likely going to be misunderstood here. Collectively, we can all do better to communicate our thoughts. Yes, it requires more time, and more patience. Personally, I highly value communication and by extension, education.

Obviously, those who’s first language is not English have additional challenges with respect to communication using English. We native speakers can simply practice more patience in this case.

But hey, this is “just a forum”, so who really cares?

Back to the action, we know that lifting lower loads for volume increases strength. We know that lifting higher loads increases strength. Written programs are an organization of the manipulation of these two variables over time, resulting in an expected outcome.

Randomly controlled studies of programs provide limited insight; perhaps even more can be gleaned from the many decades of collective, non-scientific experience and reports.

As a sidebar, I find it absolutely hilarious that we value randomly controlling studies to suggest that non-randomly manipulating loading is more effective to elicit biological change. Haha.

In the end, what is this debate about? In many typical cases, few small plates on the ends of the bar? Pity. Some folks are just too married to their ideas to admit efficacy across methods. Brings me to think of religious fervor...
 
And there are other variables we sometimes don’t talk about, e.g., I know I do well with simple programs like the Rite of Passage and S&S, and I don’t do as well with complex programs. I do well practicing the main lift I want to get better at and don’t do well with assistance exercises.

There used to be a commercial that said, “A bargain’s no bargain if they don’t eat it.” It was for a big brand name of potato chips. A training program’s no good if you don’t follow it.

My point is that the kind of thing @Arryn Grogan has suggested has proven effective - safe, gets followed, yields results - for some people and is keeping with what we know to be good training program design principles. Do we need to know much more than than?

-S-
 
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