Other/Mixed Do high reps work fast twich fibers?

[the hansenator]

Are fast twitch muscles worked at all by high rep exercises? The common wisdom seems to be that they aren't but I thought I read somewhere how, as the muscles fibers fatigue and other ones are brought in, the fast twitch fibers eventually do get worked. Is there anything to that?

 

[pet']

Hello,

@the hansenator
For while, I only trained high reps (regular speed, full ROM). I did not really get powerful from it. I did not decrease though.

Nonetheless I got endurance from this training, which are mostly slow twitch.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Anna C]

I think your statement can be true, but you've stated it in very general terms. Do you have a more specific example or question? For example, what do you mean by high rep, something like >25?

 

[North Coast Miller]

If taken to failure it seems that the fast and slow all get trained.
There are two problems with this though, metabolic fatigue from high reps interferes with all contraction, so you probably aren't getting the most from each motor unit compared to working in a lower rep range.
Also the tendons aren't exposed to the same stress that will make them increase density or stiffness. Picture the same force pulling polyester rope vs Manila.

But yes, with enough effort everything gets trained.

 

[Kyle Kowalczuk]

Not unless taken to failure but the physiological cost is not usually worth it. Plus the power output would be really low therefore not making you faster/more powerful. Higher rep (as @Anna C puts it how many is higher rep?) like 20+ is usually used to train tendon and ligament strength since the load is low for that many reps

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Are fast twitch muscles worked at all by high rep exercises?

Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber

These muscle fiber are engaged in Maximum Strength, Power and Speed Movement.

Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber are exhausted in around 15 seconds or less.

That is why after after around 10 seconds force production drop like a rock through the floor; the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber are not longer engaged.

The higher the repetition, the greater the shift is to the Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber.

MUSCLE FIBER TYPE COMPARISON CHART

Fast-Twitch Vs. Slow-Twitch Muscle Fiber Types + Training Tips

Learn the difference between slow-twitch and fast-twitch muscle fibers, and find out how to train each according to athletic goals.

blog.nasm.org

Characteristic	Slow-Twitch Type I	Fast-Twitch Type IIA	Fast-Twitch Type IIX or IIB
Activities	Marathons, distance running, swimming, cycling, power walking, endurance training	Powerlifting, sprinting, jumping, strength and agility training	Powerlifting, sprinting, jumping, strength and agility training
Muscle Fiber Size	Small	Large	Large
Force Production	Low	High	Very High
Resistance to Fatigue	Slow	Quick	Very Quick
Contraction Speed	Slow	Quick	Very Quick
Mitochondria	High	Medium	Low
Capillaries	High	Medium	Low
Myoglobin	High	Medium	Low
ATPase Level	Low	Medium	High
Oxidative Capacity	High	Medium	Low

Higher Repetition Training

A program that is dedicated solely to training with higher repetition leads to a decrease in Maximum Strength, Power and Speed.

 

[the hansenator]

I think your statement can be true, but you've stated it in very general terms. Do you have a more specific example or question? For example, what do you mean by high rep, something like >25?

I'm kind of wondering in very general terms but something like more than 15 or 20 reps.

I was following a calisthenics program for a while. I seem to tolerate the exercises well so that's a mark in its favor. But it's a high volume program with bodyweight squats going up to 50 reps per set and pushups for sets of 20 and I found I was always feeling sore and worn out. I also read that, as you get older, you lose fast twitch fibers the fastest and started to wonder if it's the best use of my training time.

So I've been doing some of the higher level exercises but with lower reps and that seems to be working ok.

Edit: Fixed a typo.

 

[North Coast Miller]

This is how I understand it - fast twitch are related to high demand. As you fatigue, some of them are kicking on and off (anytime you are above aerobic threshhold some will be engaged). They are also generating inorganic phosphate, the primary cause of muscle fatigue at higher output.
The lack of mechanical tension combined with metabolic fatigue means impairs the ability to draw on these.

Having done a lot of training to failure with different loadings I can say Rest/Pause is the best way to make high rep work for strength gains, probably because it lets the FT recharge some CrP real quick, and the follow on set feels a lot like a regular set with more weight, in a much lower rep range.

Another thing I've noticed that may or may not be related - ability to grind out reps with loads above a nominal value are as much influenced by TUL as by the actual load. Example, say I can hit 10 reps to failure with load X taking 60 seconds. After a good long rest I do X +40lbs for 5 reps to tech failure and immediately continue with X, managing another 5 reps before exhaustion at about 60 seconds work. To me, there's no way I should be able to hit the same 10 reps in 60 seconds with such a large increase for the first 5 reps, but time and again I see this pattern. It makes me think that any effort above some as yet undetermined load, depletes the FT whether they are all in or not. Get it while its hot, the fizz doesn't last if high threshhold motor units are what you're trying to encourage.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I also read that, as you get older, you lose fast twitch fibers the fastest and started to wonder if it's the best use of my training time.

Decline In Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber with Age

There is definitely a decline in Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber as you age.

The decrease in Fast Twitch leads to a decrease in Maximum Strength and Power...

As elderly patients lose muscle mass, we can expect some loss of strength and function. By age 80, most people lose half of their skeletal muscle. ... In fall prevention, much of the danger arises with the loss of fast twitch / type 2 muscle fibers. Source: Sarcopenia Prevention with Eccentric Exercise and Fast Twitch Targeting

A Secondary Factor

...is the many older individual do very little Strength or Power Training to maintain or promote Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

As the saying goes, "Use it or lose it."

...Older people who have problems getting around are more likely to have low muscle power than their younger or more mobile counterparts. ...“Loss of muscle performance seems to be a stronger predictor of loss of function, and possibly even disability, than loss of muscle mass per se,” Fielding says. Source: Power Play

Exercise For Older Individual

The only way to maintain Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber is to utilize exercise that specifically develop them: Maximum Strength, Power and Speed Movements: Squats, Kettlebell Swings, etc.

Plyometric Training For Seniors

Tom Morris, MS Exercise Physiology, specializes with Seniors on Strength Training Programs.

Morris uses Plyometrics with the Seniors capable of performing them.

As per Morris, Plyometrics for Seniors may simply involve jumping up maybe and inch off the floor from a standing position.

As Mark Rippetoe said, "Stronger people are harder to kill than weak people and more useful in general."

 

[Anna C]

So I've been doing some of the higher level exercises but with lower reps and that seems to be working ok.

Working OK, meaning, you see progress in the direction you are aiming?

The only way to maintain Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber is to utilize exercise that specifically develop them: Maximum Strength, Power and Speed Movements: Squats, Kettlebell Swings, etc.

Like Kenny said, train for strength and you will develop the fast twitch fibers.

 

[Bryant W]

If not taken to failure, high rep sets are unlikely to engage fast twitch fibers to a significant degree.

If taken to failure, as slow twitch motor units fatigue and fail, higher motor units will kick in and fast twitch muscles will be recruited. This is as per Hennemans size principle: with lower intensity the body will at first only recruit smaller motor units/slow twitch fibers (the minimum needed to get the job done), but if the load is sufficient to cause those units to fail, higher motor units will kick in and fast twitch fibers will be recruited.

This is reflected in certain training schemes such as Michael Yessis 1x20 system, which is based on linear progression but with a single set that in the initial stages works up to 20 reps to technical failure, and then as improvement stalls the rep goal will decrease to 14 and then 8. I have seen a lot of interesting data from coaches, especially at the developmental level (mostly high school and college), using variations on that system and tracking not just progress in the weight room, but showing impressive across the board improvement in other monitored power/speed capabilities, such as fly 10, 40 yd dash, vertical jump, etc. Similarly, high rep leg sets as performed like the Gambetta leg circuit (supersets of squat/lunge/dynamic step up/jump squats) of high reps (working up to 5 sets of 20 reps of each exercise, except jump squats which have a goal of 10), gradually decreasing rest between sets to none, show similar across the board improvements in speed and jumping parameters, per the coaches I am familiar with who have used that type of scheme. An important feature of the Gambetta leg circuit: it relies on the speed of the reps as opposed to external load, which is thought to work well because the speed of the reps (goal of 1 rep/second) accentuates the eccentric component of the exercise, and thereby the intensity (not to mention the inevitable DOMS if pursued with more than the recommended vigor when introducing the system )...at least that's the theory.

In other words, yes, you can structure high rep sets to stimulate fast twitch fibers and potentially improve power/speed capabilities, but as usual the devil is in the details.

 

[the hansenator]

Working OK, meaning, you see progress in the direction you are aiming?

Yes, making progress.

I have a history of "issues". The list of things I can do has increased in the last couple of years but I'm still working within those limits.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

If taken to failure, as slow twitch motor units fatigue and fail, higher motor units will kick in and fast twitch muscles will be recruited. This is as per Hennemans size principle: with lower intensity the body will at first only recruit smaller motor units/slow twitch fibers (the minimum needed to get the job done), but if the load is sufficient to cause those units to fail, higher motor units will kick in and fast twitch fibers will be recruited.

The Size Principle

Performing a light to moderate load to failure does recruit the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber. It is effective for Bodybuilding and Endurance Training.

However, is it is counter productive in the development of Maximum Strength, Power and Speed Athletes, as I am sure you are aware of.

Research and anecdotal data have demonstrated that Bodybuilder who exclusive employ only Hypertrophy Training increase muscle mass at the expense of Maximum Strength, Power and Speed.

...you can structure high rep sets to stimulate fast twitch fibers and potentially improve power/speed capabilities,
but as usual the devil is in the details.

Cluster Set Training

The key to maintaining and developing Power and Maximum Strength is Cluster Set Training.

For those unfamiliar with it, it employs performing sets of repetitions within a set of repetitions with short rest periods.

As an example, let's say 3 repetition are performed in a set, followed by a 15 second to 60 second rest period. That circuit is completed, let's say 5 times. That means you have performed 15 repetition in 1 Cluster Set.

You then rest 3 minutes or longer and perform the same Custer Set above.

You perform this Custer Set sequence let's say 5 times.

That means the total number of repetition performed in that exercise is 75 Repetitions.

"Every Minute On The Minute Training" is good example of Cluster Set Training.

Short Rest Period Between Cluster

These short rest period between each set of clusters allows Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber to recover; brings them back to live.

Engaging Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber

For Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber to be engaged and developed requires the movement needs to be performed via...

"Compensatory Acceleration", Dr Fred Hatfield

The weight in the movement needs to be performed explosively; pushing/pulling it as hard and fast as you can.

With heavy load "The Intent" needs to be to explode up with the weight; even though that isn't going to occur.

Dr Jonathan Oliver's Custer Set Hypertrophy Training Protocol

This is some Cluster Set High Repetition Hypertrophy Training research by Oliver.

As research demonstrates, Hypertrophy Training alone is counter productive for Maximum Strength, Power and Speed.

Oliver found that Cluster Set Training ensured athletes were able to increase muscle mass while maintaining and developing Power and Maximum Strength.

While Traditional Hypertrophy Training was more effective, Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training came in a close second; while ensuring substantially greater development of the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

With that said, the Traditional Higher Repetition Hypertrophy Training can enhance Power and Maximum Strength in a...

Conjugate Training Program

1) The Westside Powerlifting Training Method: This method involves Hypertrophy, Power and Maximum Training. It been around for close to 40 years.

2) Dr Michael Zourdos: Zourdos backs up the Westside Method. Zourdos found that 1 Repetition Maxes increased when Hypertrophy, Power and Maximum Training were employed in the same Training Cycle.

3) Dr Brad Schoenfeld: Schoenfeld's research determined that Hypertrophy was most effective achieved when the following were incorporated.

1) Mechanical Tension: Maximum Strength Training

2) Metabolic Stress: Hypertrophy Training; The Pump.

3) Muscle Damage: Essentially pushing the exercise to failure or near failure; Overreaching, a mild form of Overtraining.

Summary

1) High Non-Stop Repetition training as a stand alone program decreases Maximum Strength, Power and Speed.

2) A Conjugate Program that includes Maximum Strength and Power Training in conjunction with Higher Repetition Hypertrophy Training can be effective if the Training Program is well written and performed.

3) Cluster Set Training allows higher repetition to be performed, ensuring greater development of the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

 

[pet']

Hello,

Here is an interesting article about clusters on t-nation. There are plenty of other on this website

The Best Strength Training Method of All Time

by Christian Thibaudeau The Cluster Training Bible Cluster training is unbeatable for strength gains. But which type should you use? Here's what you need to know. Twenty-plus years ago I attended a Charles Poliquin seminar. I was 19 years old and competing in Olympic lifting. I was looking for...

www.t-nation.com

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Here is an interesting article about clusters on t-nation. There are plenty of other on this website

The Best Strength Training Method of All Time

by Christian Thibaudeau The Cluster Training Bible Cluster training is unbeatable for strength gains. But which type should you use? Here's what you need to know. Twenty-plus years ago I attended a Charles Poliquin seminar. I was 19 years old and competing in Olympic lifting. I was looking for...

www.t-nation.com

Thank for finding and posting it.

Now let's break it down into the...

Cliff Notes on Cluster Set Training

Charles Poliquin Disciple

Thibaudeau is a disciple of the late Charles Poliquin, as I am. Poliquin was a pioneer in Strength Training.

In 1989, Poliquin's research article on Non-Linear Periodization Training appeared in the National Strength and Conditioning Research Journal. Non-Linear Perioidization Training is now viewed as one of the most effective method of training.

Poliquin has provided other innovative training methods. Thibudeau has followed in his foot step, expanding on other innovative methods.

You recruit and fatigue fast-twitch muscle fibers.

...Every rep is maximally effective at stimulating hypertrophy and increasing strength.

You develop the capacity to make the fast-twitch fibers "twitch" as fast as possible.

With clusters, every rep is in that zone too. So the more of these reps you have relative to your total number of reps, the better you are at programming your nervous system to make your fibers fire with a high rate. As a result, you get stronger.

You build muscle mass.

...With a cluster set, you get more reps in a set while also maximizing load. That makes cluster training a powerful hypertrophy method.

You desensitize the Golgi tendon organs (GTOs).

The GTOs are sensors in your tendons. They inhibit further force production.

You get a higher quality of heavy work.

Because of the intra-set recovery period, your capacity to produce force is better maintained from rep to rep. This leads to better technique maintenance.

With all that said, let's look at other reference on Cluster Set Training...

Dr Greg Haff Power/Strength Training Cluster Set Research

Haff's research, previously posted on this site, shows...

Power (optimal Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber development) is obtain when rest periods of around 45 seconds during cluster are utilized.

The 45 second rest period between each cluster allowing for heavier loads to be used; greater development of Power and Maximum Strength are achieved.

Thibaudeau indirectly reference is in this part of the article with...

Carl Miller's Guidelines (Intensive)

Miller's "Intensive Cluster Sets" for up to 60 second rest between clusters allow for greater loads to be used; increasing Power and Maximum Strength.

Dr Jonathan Oliver's Hypertrophy Cluster Set Training

Oliver's research found that Hypertrophy was achieved while maintaining and/or increasing Power and Maximum Strength when rest periods between cluster were around 15 seconds.

Thibaudeau indirectly reference is in this part of the article with...

Poliquin's Cluster Set Guideline

"The Poliquin work-to-rest ratio will give you a bit more muscle growth stimulus." . 15-20 seconds between clusters.

 

[Nate]

Most cluster conversation I've seen says work should be done ~80% and up. Could it effectively be applied to kb or bodyweight exercise variations which are higher than ~8 rep max? Would that be submax practice, giving neurological strength improvement, or does that turn all the work into junk volume if sub 80% & far from failure?
Thx!

 

[wespom9]

@kennycro@@aol.com really good posts, thanks.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Most cluster conversation I've seen says work should be done ~80% and up

Power Training Percentages

Based on research the following applies...

1) Olympic Movements fall into the 70-80% of 1 Repetition Max area.

2) Traditional Exercise Movements such as Squat, Bench Press, Deadlifts, etc are in the 48 - 62% of 1 Repetition Max.

That is why the Westside Speed (Power) Training Percentage is between 45 to 65%.

Could it effectively be applied to kb or bodyweight exercise variations which are higher than ~8 rep max?

Kettlebell Swing For Power

One independent case study, posted on this site, indicated that Kettlebell Swing with a bell that is one third you body weight is the sweet spot.

Dr Bret Contreras' research demonstrated the Heavy Kettlebell Swing are more effective for Power. Heavy Kettlebell Swing defined as 50% of body weight or higher produced the greatest Power Output.

For those with lighter Kettlebells, attaching a band to the bell works well.

 

[mprevost]

Are fast twitch muscles worked at all by high rep exercises? The common wisdom seems to be that they aren't but I thought I read somewhere how, as the muscles fibers fatigue and other ones are brought in, the fast twitch fibers eventually do get worked. Is there anything to that?

As you approach failure you will recruit and use near 100% of available fibers, including fast twitch fibers.