Kettlebell Do you need to press?

[Kenny Croxdale]

C&J to C&P is like comparing Olympic weightlifting to powerlifting - which one is better? None of them, since they are different disciplines.

Comparing Olympic Lifting and Powerlifting

1) Olympic Lifting is a Power Movement.

It is one of the most effective for athletes or individuals who want to increase Power Output, Explosive Power.

2) Powerlifting

This sport is a test of Maximum Strength. As we know, there is no Power in Powerlifting.

A Powerlifting Protocol is one of the most effective for increasing Maximum Strength.

Which Is Better?

1) Power

Olympic Training Movements are optimal for increasing Power Output; making them better in this area.

2) Maximum Strength

A Powerlifting approach is more optimal for increasing Maximum Strength,

The Key

Use the right tool for the right job.

 

[Kyle Kowalczuk]

If you want to be a BEAST, clean and press. If you want to be a BEAST than can hunt for a long time then clean and jerk.

 

[Reuben B]

@Kenny Croxdale perhaps I should have been more specific. Yes, the jerk and press move through the same ROM. And if you lower the jerk in a controlled manner you get eccentric loading through the same ROM. But I have a hard time believing they are equal in terms of how they work the triceps and deltoids. The jerk is essentially an isometric hold at the top. With the press, while the degree of work may change based on joint angle, it's always working.
Which is why people typically report more carry over of pressing to jerk than vice versa. And why big pressers typically show more hypertrophy than jerk specialists.
The question was, do we lose something by not pressing? I think the answer is yes, you lose training concentric contraction through a large ROM.

 

[Reuben B]

I'll add. Concentric contraction through long ROM is desirable because of it's contribution to GPP.
It strengthen and conditions muscles at all lengths. As part of a press you hit the main three types of contraction. If I had to bet on a competition made up of random pushing events, I'd rather see a big press, than a big jerk. In a similar way, even if a program is swing focused, we still want to do some form of squatting.

 

[Ryan T]

For maximal pressing strength you'd have to train it I'm sure, but C&J will still give you a strong press as well as the benefits of power training. After 3 months of strict C&J I pressed 32kg on the right. No previous pressing centric protocol had gotten me there.

I'd rather train all the attributes you get from C&J and end up with a strong press. I don't need a max out my press, but a strong one will work well (for me). I also think it's fine to do a C&P program, but I'll submit that broader range of athletic qualities will be trained with C&J.

 

[Starlord]

Do I miss out strength and/or GPP gains by not pressing? I'm not sure I'll know.

What are you hoping to be generally physically prepared for? GPP still has to he specific to whatever you are trying to be prepared for.

Generally speaking through GPP you will work on improving an athletes strength, explosiveness, aerobic capacity, lactic threshold, VO2 max etc. The athlete would then learn to use his/her new found physicality in their SSP (sports specific practice).

So with that greater understanding of the purpose of GPP, we need to know your goals in order to plan our GPP. As GPP for a marathon runner and a shot putter are 2 completely different things.

But to answer your question without knowing your goals, you are missing out in your GPP by not pressing.

 

[Tom Flint]

What is it that you hate about the press? Is it the tension? The ‘slowness’ of the press effort vs the power of the C&J?

My feeling is that if you jerk/push press your 25kg for reps, and you believe you have the strength and muscle mass to press it, it’s not going to take six months of dedicated pressing work to bring it up. As others have said, just grooving the movement with lowish volume may boost it fairly quickly.

To answer the original question, I agree with what others have said very well: it can only help your power.

 

[John K]

For maximal pressing strength you'd have to train it I'm sure, but C&J will still give you a strong press as well as the benefits of power training. After 3 months of strict C&J I pressed 32kg on the right. No previous pressing centric protocol had gotten me there.

This reminds me of something we used to do with barbell presses called press starts. Basically, you have a supramaximal load (greater than your 1RM) and the point is to grind into it as long as possible, but it would usually never get over mid forehead. Then, one day, a press start suddenly goes all the way up and suddenly your PR is 5-10% higher.

 

[ntapsak]

Thank you all for the discussion, it has been very interesting. Indeed, I titled the thread as such because I wanted to invite opinions.

@iron&flint in recent self-reflection, I think the reason is not that I hate the press, but grinds in general, and there is a not-exercising-related reason, which may also be why I struggled to get myself to ever like barbells or dumbbells. I tend to struggle with despondency (acedia) and have always found that long walks are needed to help clear my mind and help me focus. Walking is repetitive, and if you're in a calming locale (forests are my favorite), quite meditative, and soothing.

I believe that my preference for ballistic lifts is along similar lines: I have found that the repetitive nature of A+A work, or just any ballistic exercise done in intervals, has a similar effect. I originally got into kettlebells and discovered StrongFirst to defeat the covid blues, and it continues to be a source of defeating the blues for me. With the discovery of the kettlebell, I've gotten healthier, more muscular, feel better on a regular basis, more flexible, mobile, etc. But I don't have any specific goals, i.e. I don't have any strength goals, SSP need, or even a goal to GPP. Really, I only ever was looking for an exercise outlet I like that I can sustain.

The other point I would make is that these, "if I can only do one/two/three lift(s), which should I do?" questions are always a little silly in that, if you have the tool (barbell, kettlebell, etc.) you're never limited in exercise selection, only what you want to do. Of course, I would press better if I pressed, jerk better if I jerked, or I would snatch a lot if I snatched a lot. I'm never limited to just choose one.
But, it is interesting to contemplate carryover if and only if you chose one exercise. I do, in fact, press and push press much more than when I started doing C&J regularly (a year ago), and I've never trained either. Personally, that repetitive element of doing the same lift for a few dozen repeats is really helpful for me in ways that go beyond simply physical training.

 

[Boris Bachmann]

Do you "need" to press? since you don't have to do any lift you don't want to do.

Probably not. Do you want to press?

Do I miss out strength and/or GPP gains by not pressing?

Yes. A stronger press may help your jerk a little (if you are weak at the jerk to begin with). I've never found that the jerk helps my press (but again, if you're weak at the press to begin with, it might) YMMV, but the stronger you are the more I think you'll come around to my view.

 

[bluejeff]

This reminds me of something we used to do with barbell presses called press starts. Basically, you have a supramaximal load (greater than your 1RM) and the point is to grind into it as long as possible, but it would usually never get over mid forehead. Then, one day, a press start suddenly goes all the way up and suddenly your PR is 5-10% higher.

Perhaps you could clarify for me... the way I am reading this is "try and press a weight you can't press until you can press it." Does it not mean that?

 

[John K]

Perhaps you could clarify for me... the way I am reading this is "try and press a weight you can't press until you can press it." Does it not mean that?

Not quite. A press start is a planned failure. With a press start, the goal isn't to press the weight; but you are trying to press the weight. Actually pressing it is more of an accident and not the actual goal. Basically put 2-7% more than your 1RM and you press it and grind it for 2-5 seconds and then rack it. Sometimes though you go to hit your press start and you're grinding and grinding and then suddenly it's locked out overhead - there are not mistakes only happy little accidents.

 

[Ryan T]

Thank you all for the discussion, it has been very interesting. Indeed, I titled the thread as such because I wanted to invite opinions.

@iron&flint in recent self-reflection, I think the reason is not that I hate the press, but grinds in general, and there is a not-exercising-related reason, which may also be why I struggled to get myself to ever like barbells or dumbbells. I tend to struggle with despondency (acedia) and have always found that long walks are needed to help clear my mind and help me focus. Walking is repetitive, and if you're in a calming locale (forests are my favorite), quite meditative, and soothing.

I believe that my preference for ballistic lifts is along similar lines: I have found that the repetitive nature of A+A work, or just any ballistic exercise done in intervals, has a similar effect. I originally got into kettlebells and discovered StrongFirst to defeat the covid blues, and it continues to be a source of defeating the blues for me. With the discovery of the kettlebell, I've gotten healthier, more muscular, feel better on a regular basis, more flexible, mobile, etc. But I don't have any specific goals, i.e. I don't have any strength goals, SSP need, or even a goal to GPP. Really, I only ever was looking for an exercise outlet I like that I can sustain.

The other point I would make is that these, "if I can only do one/two/three lift(s), which should I do?" questions are always a little silly in that, if you have the tool (barbell, kettlebell, etc.) you're never limited in exercise selection, only what you want to do. Of course, I would press better if I pressed, jerk better if I jerked, or I would snatch a lot if I snatched a lot. I'm never limited to just choose one.
But, it is interesting to contemplate carryover if and only if you chose one exercise. I do, in fact, press and push press much more than when I started doing C&J regularly (a year ago), and I've never trained either. Personally, that repetitive element of doing the same lift for a few dozen repeats is really helpful for me in ways that go beyond simply physical training.

Perhaps the last sentence is more important than what you've said previously.

You want to train C&J and are seeking confirmation that this is OK. Go for it and pivot if/when it's necessary. In six months you may feel inclined to do something else, or you may pepper in other things.

Perhaps you could get stronger in the press overall, but if you are laying down a solid base ability and gaining other mental/emotional benefits, I don't think there's a problem.

 

[pet']

Hello,

For maximal pressing strength you'd have to train it I'm sure, but C&J will still give you a strong press as well as the benefits of power training. After 3 months of strict C&J I pressed 32kg on the right. No previous pressing centric protocol had gotten me there.

What was your working weight ? Out of curiosity, what did your training look like ?

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Yes, the jerk and press move through the same ROM.

ROM The Same

That was one of the point of my previous post.

I have a hard time believing they are equal in terms of how they work the triceps and deltoids.

Never Stated

I don't know where you came up with this. I never stated that.

What did post was...

1) Press

The Overloading of the muscles is in the first one-third of the movement.

Once and individual get it approximately past the bottom one-third of the movement, they can usually lock it out.

2) Jerks and Push Press

These movement by pass the bottom Sticking Point of a Press with leg drive.

The Overload is at the top of the Jerk and Press, where momentum slows down with heavy load or when muscle fatigue set in.

What That Means

1) The Press Muscle Overload occurs in the first part of that movement; working the shoulder to a greater extent.

Partial Pressing Movements work and develop the shoulder to a greater degree when worked from the bottom to approximately a third of the way up.

One of the best is the

Bradford Press...


2) Triceps Engagement

There is some engagement of the Triceps in diving the bar off the shoulders.

However, Triceps are engaged more the father that bar moves past the the first third of the movement.

The Triceps are the key to locking the top part of the Press, as well as locking out the top part in a Push Press or Jerk.

In fact, due to the heavier load at the top part of a Push Press or Jerk, a greater Overload is obtained.

The jerk is essentially an isometric hold at the top.

Based On That Statement...

A Press and Push Press are Isometric Hold at the top if paused, as well.

people typically report more carry over of pressing to jerk than vice versa.

Great!

Since there are so many individual who "Typically report more carry over of pressing to jerks" you can provide that research data.

I am sure other will enjoy it, too.

big pressers typically show more hypertrophy than jerk specialists

Greater Hypertrophy with Pressing

Research (Dr Brad Schoenfeld) which has been posted multiple times on StrrongFirst, determined three components optimally produced Hypertrophy.

One of those is...

Metabolic Stress

Metabolic Stress occurs with "The Pump"/"The Burn"; which elicits a downstream anabolic muscle building effect.

Muscle Contractions restrict Venous Blood Flow back to the heart.

Blood is trapping in the muscles causing the them to balloon up.

It also cause an increase in Lactate, not lactic acid. Lactate produces "The Burn".

Lactate produces the downstream increase of Growth Hormone (Research Jeremy Loenneke ) for Muscle Hypertrophy.

Thus, the length of time muscle remain in Metabolic Stress has to do with...

Time Under Tension

The length of time and number of repetition muscle are subjected to creates this Metabolic Stress.

1) Traditional Strength Training Movements like he Press subjects the muscle to much greater Metabolic Stress due the contraction from beginning to end.

2) Explosive Movement like Jerks, The Press, Plyometrics do little for Hypertrophy due to the minimal amount of time Metabolic Stress is place on them.

do we lose something by not pressing? I think the answer is yes, you lose training concentric contraction through a large ROM.

Synergistic Effect

The sum is greater than it parts.

Simply put, it's like adding 2 + 2 and getting 5.

Thus, one type of Strength Training can enhance the other; providing it is well written and executed.

That means that Pressing help with increasing a Push Press and Jerk. Push Pressing and Jerks contribute to a stronger Press.

The combination of Maximum Strength, Power, Speed, and Hypertrophy elicit a greater Training Effect.

Examples

1) Westside Powerlifting Protocol

a) Repetition Method, Hypertrophy Training

b) Max Effort Method, Limit Strength

c) Speed Training, misname, it is Power Training

2) Olympic Lifter

They combine Limit Strength and Power Training

3) Chinese Olympic Lifters

Some of the best in the Olympic Lifting now perform Hypertrophy Training in conjunction with Limit Strength and Power.

4) Dr Michael Zourdos, Powerlifter

Zourdos' determined that Limit Strength was optimized to a greater extent in a Conjugate Training Program that included: Hypertrophy, Power and Limit Strength.

4) Dr Brad Schoenfeld's Hypertrophy Research

His research determined muscle mass was increased when these three components were implemented...

a) Muscle Tension: Limit Strength Training

b) Metabolic Stress; Bodybuilding Hypertrophy Training

c) Muscle Damage. Pushing an exercise to the limit at times, Loaded Stretching of the Muscles in Full Range Movements and Eccentrics.

Jerks and the Push Press allows an Accommodation Eccentric to be performed; pushing up more weight than you can Concentrically Press and the lowering it in 1-2 seconds.

Research shows performing an Eccentric in 1-2 second is more productive in the development of Limit Strength and for Hypertrophy, as well.

 

[Ryan T]

ROM The Same

That was one of the point of my previous post.


Never Stated

I don't know where you came up with this. I never stated that.

What did post was...

1) Press

The Overloading of the muscles is in the first one-third of the movement.

Once and individual get it approximately past the bottom one-third of the movement, they can usually lock it out.

2) Jerks and Push Press

These movement by pass the bottom Sticking Point of a Press with leg drive.

The Overload is at the top of the Jerk and Press, where momentum slows down with heavy load or when muscle fatigue set in.

What That Means

1) The Press Muscle Overload occurs in the first part of that movement; working the shoulder to a greater extent.

Partial Pressing Movements work and develop the shoulder to a greater degree when worked from the bottom to approximately a third of the way up.

One of the best is the

Bradford Press...


2) Triceps Engagement

There is some engagement of the Triceps in diving the bar off the shoulders.

However, Triceps are engaged more the father that bar moves past the the first third of the movement.

The Triceps are the key to locking the top part of the Press, as well as locking out the top part in a Push Press or Jerk.

In fact, due to the heavier load at the top part of a Push Press or Jerk, a greater Overload is obtained.



Based On That Statement...

A Press and Push Press are Isometric Hold at the top if paused, as well.



Great!

Since there are so many individual who "Typically report more carry over of pressing to jerks" you can provide that research data.

I am sure other will enjoy it, too.



Greater Hypertrophy with Pressing

Research (Dr Brad Schoenfeld) which has been posted multiple times on StrrongFirst, determined three components optimally produced Hypertrophy.

One of those is...

Metabolic Stress

Metabolic Stress occurs with "The Pump"/"The Burn"; which elicits a downstream anabolic muscle building effect.

Muscle Contractions restrict Venous Blood Flow back to the heart.

Blood is trapping in the muscles causing the them to balloon up.

It also cause an increase in Lactate, not lactic acid. Lactate produces "The Burn".

Lactate produces the downstream increase of Growth Hormone (Research Jeremy Loenneke ) for Muscle Hypertrophy.

Thus, the length of time muscle remain in Metabolic Stress has to do with...

Time Under Tension

The length of time and number of repetition muscle are subjected to creates this Metabolic Stress.

1) Traditional Strength Training Movements like he Press subjects the muscle to much greater Metabolic Stress due the contraction from beginning to end.

2) Explosive Movement like Jerks, The Press, Plyometrics do little for Hypertrophy due to the minimal amount of time Metabolic Stress is place on them.



Synergistic Effect

The sum is greater than it parts.

Simply put, it's like adding 2 + 2 and getting 5.

Thus, one type of Strength Training can enhance the other; providing it is well written and executed.

That means that Pressing help with increasing a Push Press and Jerk. Push Pressing and Jerks contribute to a stronger Press.

The combination of Maximum Strength, Power, Speed, and Hypertrophy elicit a greater Training Effect.

Examples

1) Westside Powerlifting Protocol

a) Repetition Method, Hypertrophy Training

b) Max Effort Method, Limit Strength

c) Speed Training, misname, it is Power Training

2) Olympic Lifter

They combine Limit Strength and Power Training

3) Chinese Olympic Lifters

Some of the best in the Olympic Lifting now perform Hypertrophy Training in conjunction with Limit Strength and Power.

4) Dr Michael Zourdos, Powerlifter

Zourdos' determined that Limit Strength was optimized to a greater extent in a Conjugate Training Program that included: Hypertrophy, Power and Limit Strength.

4) Dr Brad Schoenfeld's Hypertrophy Research

His research determined muscle mass was increased when these three components were implemented...

a) Muscle Tension: Limit Strength Training

b) Metabolic Stress; Bodybuilding Hypertrophy Training

c) Muscle Damage. Pushing an exercise to the limit at times, Loaded Stretching of the Muscles in Full Range Movements and Eccentrics.

Jerks and the Push Press allows an Accommodation Eccentric to be performed; pushing up more weight than you can Concentrically Press and the lowering it in 1-2 seconds.

Research shows performing an Eccentric in 1-2 second is more productive in the development of Limit Strength and for Hypertrophy, as well.

Seems like you really can’t go “wrong” with either, depending on your goals.

 

[Adachi]

Seems like you really can’t go “wrong” with either, depending on your goals.

this thread got me curious.

I am currently starting a simple program EMOM reps (similar to Strongfirst BJJ program), alternating C+J , and C+P and alternating weight selection.

I'll be interested in how this goes over the coming weeks.

what I can tell from just a few sessions is that pressing puts most of the muscle congestion (albeit low intensity, and shortly dissipating) in the shoulders, and jerks put most of the congestion in the quads.

 

[Ryan T]

Hello,


What was your working weight ? Out of curiosity, what did your training look like ?

Kind regards,

Pet'

Working weight was double 20kg. Broken out into 3 month long phases. Timed and in series format with M - L - H days
Phase 1 - Jerks and Front Squats complexes
Phase 2 - Jerks and Cleans (separated out by series)
Phase 3 - LCCJ

Phase 3 was a nightmare. I’d rather not go into the specifics because it was a program I purchased, but it’s probably some of the most difficult training I’ve done.

When I tested my maxes at the end I did 20 continuous LCCJ @20kg and 12 @24kg and a PR for my press @32kg.

I know we’re all going back and forth on this subject, but unless you’re trying to max out your press or your goals are different than than GPP, I really don’t see how you can go wrong with C&J.

 

[Ryan T]

this thread got me curious.

I am currently starting a simple program EMOM reps (similar to Strongfirst BJJ program), alternating C+J , and C+P and alternating weight selection.

I'll be interested in how this goes over the coming weeks.

what I can tell from just a few sessions is that pressing puts most of the muscle congestion (albeit low intensity, and shortly dissipating) in the shoulders, and jerks put most of the congestion in the quads.

Alternating C&J and C&P in the same session? Or alternating ABA BAB etc…?

 

[Adachi]

Alternating C&J and C&P in the same session? Or alternating ABA BAB etc…?

Current goal is daily moderate training
my schedule has interruptions (rest days) built-in
OLAD - EMOM - about 10 minutes
here's the current weight selection layout.

Movement & Weight​	G-​	G​	G+​
Clean & Jerk​	-​	32kg​	40kg​
Clean & Press​	24kg​	32kg​	-​

Pick a different square every day.