Old Forum Eric Cressey on shoulder packing
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Al Ciampa
Level 7 Valued Member
He said it correctly, and his demo shows the problem with novices. When your rhomboids and lower traps are inactive, you use the lat and cave to the side. The lat stabilizes static positions such as DL, GU, top of the press etc, and not dynamic movements, like the OH pressing action.
I still like the notion of an active shoulder ... and I allow my students to find their own stabilization and platform building techniques using my cues to begin with, but incorporating their own proprioceptive feedback over time. We're all possibly just a tad different in this area.
I still like the notion of an active shoulder ... and I allow my students to find their own stabilization and platform building techniques using my cues to begin with, but incorporating their own proprioceptive feedback over time. We're all possibly just a tad different in this area.
Al Ciampa
Level 7 Valued Member
Jeffrey,
I should watch it again before posting this comment, but I have crap to do this morning ...
I don't think that he implied as much, and he certainly didn't state it outright, but I don't think that, for this piece, this is his point. His point is to stop cuing the lat (which I only partly agree with).
He also seems to be discussing only overhead work ... things change in the pulls. However, think about the OH squat - this is all scap elevation. But also think about how it gets there: if you snatched it up, the scaps went from depressed (packed) in the pull, to elevated in the "catch".
If you're just working the OH squat, and say, BTN push-pressed, or jerked it up, the scap again goes from packed before the jerk to elevated after the jerk.
The press is different ... some people go from depressed scaps at the start to elevated scaps at the finish, though if you watch closely, this occurs nearer to the finish. Other keep their scaps depressed the whole time. Why? There are a range of anatomical differences among us.
The scaps float on the ribcage, so as long as they are stabilized AND positioned properly for the given movement, what's the difference which muscle groups do this? I like the idea of antagonistic muscles firing hard in order to get the agonist muscles to fire harder ... in the case of the press, the lat antagonizes the shoulder flexors.
Building a tight platform with the lat and other scap stabilizers to press off of, I feel my lat reduce force production as my shoulder begins to flex, allowing it to flex more forcefully (I guess). Toward the end of the press, the trap shrugs my shoulder hard to lockout. When I fight this natural tendency to shrug, I can't lockout as much weight and it's not as forceful. This is "active shoulder" ... but, this is me, not everyone.
Well, I should have just re-watched the video then ...
I should watch it again before posting this comment, but I have crap to do this morning ...
I don't think that he implied as much, and he certainly didn't state it outright, but I don't think that, for this piece, this is his point. His point is to stop cuing the lat (which I only partly agree with).
He also seems to be discussing only overhead work ... things change in the pulls. However, think about the OH squat - this is all scap elevation. But also think about how it gets there: if you snatched it up, the scaps went from depressed (packed) in the pull, to elevated in the "catch".
If you're just working the OH squat, and say, BTN push-pressed, or jerked it up, the scap again goes from packed before the jerk to elevated after the jerk.
The press is different ... some people go from depressed scaps at the start to elevated scaps at the finish, though if you watch closely, this occurs nearer to the finish. Other keep their scaps depressed the whole time. Why? There are a range of anatomical differences among us.
The scaps float on the ribcage, so as long as they are stabilized AND positioned properly for the given movement, what's the difference which muscle groups do this? I like the idea of antagonistic muscles firing hard in order to get the agonist muscles to fire harder ... in the case of the press, the lat antagonizes the shoulder flexors.
Building a tight platform with the lat and other scap stabilizers to press off of, I feel my lat reduce force production as my shoulder begins to flex, allowing it to flex more forcefully (I guess). Toward the end of the press, the trap shrugs my shoulder hard to lockout. When I fight this natural tendency to shrug, I can't lockout as much weight and it's not as forceful. This is "active shoulder" ... but, this is me, not everyone.
Well, I should have just re-watched the video then ...
Brett Jones
StrongFirst Director of Education
Master Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Beast Tamer
some semantics but overall not that different
Would have liked to see the shoulder packing demonstrated having started from a "distracted" or extended position into the "packed" position
Agree on the individual differences etc... and finding the groove that is right for the individual
Would have liked to see the shoulder packing demonstrated having started from a "distracted" or extended position into the "packed" position
Agree on the individual differences etc... and finding the groove that is right for the individual
Tim Kugel
Level 1 Valued Member
The point Eric Cressey makes intrigues me. I started the PttP several months ago (I had to stop due to time constraints) and was making good progress, but started developing a pain in my right shoulder/clavicle (the shoulder joint doesn't hurt, but the pain seems to start there and radiate through the clavicle). I only feel it when I shrug up and forward, whether or not my arm is raised.
I started PttP doing floor presses, but moved to bench after a week or two. In both situations I was focusing on pulling my shoulders down to my lower back, which felt strong for pressing, but did seem to place a lot of pressure on my shoulder joint. I was trying to replicate Pavel's technique from the book as closely as I could. I've never had this type of pain before from any kind of pressing, although I've never done any pressing with this much frequency either.
I am working with my chiropractor to make sure I'm keeping everything healthy. In general, my shoulder alignment and posture are better than they've ever been. He did say that I needed to strengthen the muscle under my shoulder blades. So, I've been doing band pull-a-parts and shoulder rotations nearly daily.
Has anyone else had or seen this issue? If so, how was it resolved?
Thanks!
I started PttP doing floor presses, but moved to bench after a week or two. In both situations I was focusing on pulling my shoulders down to my lower back, which felt strong for pressing, but did seem to place a lot of pressure on my shoulder joint. I was trying to replicate Pavel's technique from the book as closely as I could. I've never had this type of pain before from any kind of pressing, although I've never done any pressing with this much frequency either.
I am working with my chiropractor to make sure I'm keeping everything healthy. In general, my shoulder alignment and posture are better than they've ever been. He did say that I needed to strengthen the muscle under my shoulder blades. So, I've been doing band pull-a-parts and shoulder rotations nearly daily.
Has anyone else had or seen this issue? If so, how was it resolved?
Thanks!
Jeff
Level 5 Valued Member
Maybe we are talking semantics here, but when I think of engaging the lat I think of pulling my shoulder down towards my feet. Cressey is basically saying to pull the shoulder slightly down but mostly back by engaging the traps. If the lats stay engaged, then the shoulder stays down for the duration of the overhead press. If the traps stay engaged, the shoulder can raise as the press progresses, which seems more natural to me. Even if I try to keep my shoulders down they raise as I complete a press.
I trained with some Oly lifters a few years ago. They never talked about shoulder packing, but said to lift with a big chest. I used my traps quite a bit while I was with them, and it felt pretty good. The thing is, when keeping a big chest, it is hard to keep the abs fully braced, but it feels better on the shoulders. But, I never had back problems while I was with those guys.
I trained with some Oly lifters a few years ago. They never talked about shoulder packing, but said to lift with a big chest. I used my traps quite a bit while I was with them, and it felt pretty good. The thing is, when keeping a big chest, it is hard to keep the abs fully braced, but it feels better on the shoulders. But, I never had back problems while I was with those guys.
Brett Jones
StrongFirst Director of Education
Master Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Beast Tamer
Jeffrey
there are both "camps" in Oly lifting - active shoulder and "packed" shoulder
Throwing the bar overhead - snatch or jerk is different than pressing it
In throwing it overhead you can create a "shelf" for the shoulders/bar and yes with the "big chest" it is difficult to keep the abs engaged (another difference between snatching/jerking and pressing IMO)
there are both "camps" in Oly lifting - active shoulder and "packed" shoulder
Throwing the bar overhead - snatch or jerk is different than pressing it
In throwing it overhead you can create a "shelf" for the shoulders/bar and yes with the "big chest" it is difficult to keep the abs engaged (another difference between snatching/jerking and pressing IMO)
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