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Old Forum Fat loss OR mass gain vs. Fat loss AND mass gain

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I'm 175cm @ 70kg / ~15% BF (from 84kg with 23%)... I would like to be at around 75kg / 10-12%.

My question is, do I have to "firstly" focus on bringing the body fat down then start working on gaining lean mass or can the two be done in parallel? Or perhaps the focus should be on establishing a basic level of strength and not worry too much about body fat or gaining mass for now?

Bought my first KB in Feb-2013, I have no background in sports or strength training, following the PM / ROP programs since Mar-2013. I plan to move to double KBs once I complete the ROP (targeting Mar-2014).

Nutrition wise I'm doing ~20 hours controlled fasts daily and having a meal of mostly protein and fat at night with very little in the way of carbs (which incidentally led to the discovery that I have wheat/gluten intolerance)... I largely avoid sugars other than perhaps a cheat day at the weekend.

Any feedback / suggestions / advice / help will be most welcome.
 
No background in sports or strength training, and 23% bf... I would say those are the main factors here. Simultaneous fat loss and muscle gain will probably occur, at least for a while, if you work hard.
 
I agree with Aris.

I would keep your mind on the goal of increasing your strength.

And your high rep pulls will burn fat, the extra muscle from your grinds will build muscle and help your metabolism increase as your building more muscle, thus burning fat. Plus extra strength, extra weight lifted equals extra muscle gains.

 
 
Thanks for your replies, it affirms what my thinking was tending towards. Also writing the above post made me think the matter with more clarity.

I am happy and plan to stick to PM/ROP until I finish ROP. Therefore whether my goal is strength / less bf / mass gain will not impact my training but will perhaps have a strong influence on my nutrition.

If my primary concern is strength (but don't want to increase the body fat)...

1. Is training in a fasted state important? (I train after work, around 7pm)
2. Should I continue with the current eating plan, 1 meal a day minimising carbs
 
The primary energy sources for the PM and ROP are gonna be muscle glucose ( Carbs) and phosphocreatine, ( mostly meats). Im no nutrition expert but training in a fasted state isnt ideal really.

But do what you gotta do.
 
Faisal,

I spent several years working alternating 24 hour shifts:  one day on and one day off.  This limited my ability to plan meals, so I adopted a similar eating style to you and I often trained in an intermittent fasting state  (my resource at this time was Marty Gallagher's Purposeful Primitive).  During this time, my training was limited to single kettlebell work and body weight exercises.  I was able to lose fat and maintain lean muscle mass.  The only additional nutritional element that I added was a protein shake which I consumed after my practice sessions which were one hour long every Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

More recently, I have incorporated more double kettlebell work and barbell work (mainly the powerlifts).  My resources include Geoff Neupert's Kettlebell Muscle and some of his other programs such as Kettlebell Burn Extreme.  Easy Strength by Pavel and Dan John has also been helpful.  My training sessions now vary in length from 20 minutes to two hours depending on my  schedule, and my programming most often follows a 2+2 format as Pavel has depicted in the most recent SF Blog entry.  During this time, I have followed the same nutritional approach.  Based on some of Dan John's suggestions, however,  I do at times experiment with having a shake first thing in the morning and/or at the end of the day.  These changes have resulted in large strength and mass gains.

Good luck and power to you!
 
Carbs aren't bad, especially if you're trying to gain, and around your workout is a great time to have them.

How to handle when to gain and when to lose is highly individual.  Most people can't realistically accomplish both at the same time, so it's usually best to focus on one or the other for a while, then switch.  You want to gain a _lot_ of muscle according to your math (gain 5 kg and drop 3% bodyfat is something like 8-9 kg of new muscle at your size), so maybe it's time to focus on  getting bigger for a while as your first step.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

-S-
 
Aaron, thanks again. I've been training fasted based on my reading of Geoff Neurpert, Pat Flynn and Ori Hofmekler. Like yourself I don't know enough about nutrition.

Christopher, thank you for a very thorough and insightful reply. I too have been using a whey shake after my workouts. One thing I was confused about is whether I need to eat more to gain muscle.

Steve, thank you for always being most helpful.  I think I will focus more on putting on mass and keep an eye on the fat. I do have carbs but have cut out breads and wheat. I eat rice but restrict them to small amount on training day.
 
Faisal,

Dan John wrote a book called Mass Made Simple.  In it, he points out the importance of rest and caloric intake.  Pavel recently made a similar reference when he wrote, "Eat like a man.  Sleep like a boy".   When I played football, I was running everyday and in hindsight, I think this kept me from gaining the muscle mass I wanted.  There are many factors, but Dan and Pavel have managed to make it straight forward.
 
Anything Dan has written is worth a read - Mass Made Simple will, I'm very sure, work for you - excellent idea.  Likewise, Beyond Bodybuilding has solid recommendations on the subject.  And the one-page piece on rest periods in Enter The Kettlebell is also good reading on this subject.

Nice to hear Ori's name - a real pioneer in the world of Intermittent Fasting.

-S-
 
Faisal -

Work on getting as strong as you can without putting on any more fat. Set a goal for yourself as a measurement: I will do X.

When you reach X, strip down to around 10% BF which is pretty easy to do. Do something "rapid" for a short period of time - like 4-6 weeks.

Then use the increased cellular sensitivities to pack on muscle over the next 4-8 weeks.

Rinse and repeat.

You already have the tools at your disposal I believe.

Hope that helps.

 
 
Faisal, as Geoff has said, strength first.

The old Russian model was building an endurance base and then moving on to strength; today they have flipped the order.

 
 
Gents, thank you so much for your precious words of advice.  StrongFirst it shall be.

My first goal is to strictly press half my body weight and I hope to do this by end of Feb-2014.
 
Geez, the post by Geoff is getting printed and put in my folder... Interesting thing with my folder it contains alot of Geoffs news letters.
 
Rickard, I have also kept all of Geoff's newsletters.  Why anyone would _not_ subscribe to Geoff's newsletter is beyond me.  It's always good advice, expressed in down-to-earth terms, and it's free - what more could a person ask for?

-S-
 
Good morning folks!

What is the best way or what has given you the best results on stripping down to 10% body fat? I have tried IF but started to use it as an excuse to cheat too many times. I have started following The whole30 eating style for the last week or so. What works for yall? Thanks and take care.
 
Gents, How does one subscribe to Geoff's newsletter?  Thank you in advance.

Best,

Chris

 
 
Chris, go to kettlebellsecrets.com or kettlebellburn.com and subscribe there. I would also highly recommend subscribing to originalstrength.net or at least visiting that site regularly.
 
Strange, I entered a reply, hit "Submit" and it disappeared, so here goes again...

kettlebellsecrets.com or kettlebellburn.com

I also highly recommend originalstrength.net subscription
 
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