Other/Mixed For longevity, muscle strength may be as important as aerobic exercise

[Nate]

I don't mean to be cynical about most human nature but i think most gen pop don't value longevity enough to overcome what they see as misery until then. To help the unhealthy (which seems to be the purpose of the article), the sales pitch can include longevity but also more persuasive topics like energy, endorphins and even the vainity of a healthy body. I just think too many people don't understand the quality of life improvement when we talk about quantity of life improvement. So many think, "Meh, I'll just enjoy my life and die a few years earlier instead of being miserable being healthy..." (Obviously i don't see it this way. )

 

[Steve Freides]

It's taken the medical community about 30 years to catch on to what Clarence is saying.

The page I linked to is Clarence, ~15 years after the fact, talking about a book that was published in 1992 - there's your 30 years. There are podcasts/interviews with the original authors - I watched the first 15 minutes of one of them from, if memory serves, 2014, in which the author says, "Yes, it's still true."

for body fat, I can't really read if there is much more value being lower than low end of the 'healthy' range for the given gender (10 for males, ~18 for females). Too low is not good, but what is too low?

My story, no science claimed: I weigh around at about 153 lbs (69.5 kg) most of the time. I compete at 149 lbs (67.5 kg). If I spend a long time at my competition weight or less, I get sick more often. And being what is apparently typical for men, I'm lean enough to have visible muscles, veins, and the like appearing on much of my body, but I've got a little belly. There are some pictures and videos of me with visible abs but, if memory serves, at least some of them are from the time after I had pneumonia and was still putting bodyweight back on.

A cute (IMO) story - my wife and I, not long after we'd moved to NYC, used to run races in Central Park (NYC for those who don't know) pretty regularly with someone we became friends with at her job, and as most distance runners do, we'd sometimes talk about things like, "I wonder how much better my 5k time would be if I got rid of this bit of belly fat I have." Our friend had a good retort, saying that he called his little bit of belly fat his "good life," so named because, if you didn't have it, people would think you weren't living "the good life." So don't call it belly fat, call it your "good life."

(The pneumonia's cause wasn't related to bodyweight but rather a listed "possible side effect" of an asthma medicine I was taking. I took it through two winters, got pneumonia both times, stopped taking it after that and never had pneumonia again.)

More than one study has shown that being slightly overweight is associated with reduced all cause mortality.

See immediately above - for me, this is feels true, although I don't know that I qualify as being slightly overweight or not by some standard - for myself, that's how I feel, though, just a bit over what I could be.

Is muscle "strength" and muscle "mass" the same thing?

People have written volumes on this subject. I encourage you to read Pavel's early book, "Power To The People!" and many later things from him and others on this subject. The short, correct answer is, "No." The slightly longer answer is that there are many ways to increase strength, and muscle mass is one of them.

Our focus at StrongFirst, while certainly providing the tools to add muscle mass if you want them, is first and foremost to help you improve your skill at lifting which will enable you to be stronger with whatever amount of muscle mass you choose to carry.

-S-

 

[pet']

Hello,

We can also consider longevity as a "lifetstyle" instead of necessarily viewing it as a training results. For instance, if one take the blue zones as an example, there are some common factors:
- Diet rich in raw / whole products (regardless it leans towards carbs / fats) and portion control
- Little alcohol consumption
- Social interaction (friends, family) and reduced stress
- Daily aerobic activity (walking, most of the time while carrying something light / moderately heavy)
- Day is "organized" (eating at the same hour, ...)

'Blue Zones': Secrets to borrow from people who live the longest

You don't have to live in one of these regions to adopt the surprisingly simple lifestyle habits that increase longevity.

www.nbcnews.com

Eight common denominators to live longer | News

Dan Buettner, curator of the Blue Zones, made a pit stop in Loma Linda to talk about what people in the world are doing to live longer, healthier lives

news.llu.edu

Why People in "Blue Zones" Live Longer Than the Rest of the World

“Blue Zones" are areas in which people have low rates of disease and live longer than anywhere else. Here are their inhabitants' common lifestyle features.

www.healthline.com

Blue Zones: Lessons From the World’s Longest Lived

What began as a National Geographic expedition, lead by Dan Buettner, to uncover the secrets of longevity, evolved into the discovery of the 5 places around the world where people consistently live over 100 years old, dubbed the Blue Zones. Dan and his ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Anna C]

Our focus at StrongFirst, while certainly providing the tools to add muscle mass if you want them, is first and foremost to help you improve your skill at lifting which will enable you to be stronger with whatever amount of muscle mass you choose to carry.

Perfectly said!

 

[Steve Freides]

Perfectly said!

Why, thank you, ma'am!



-S-

 

[Ege]

with whatever amount of muscle mass you choose to carry.

I love this. It is a matter of choice… very healthy way of looking in to hypertrophy.

PTTP was the first resource that I have seen(not claiming anything this way or the other), that prescribes a strength training program and then with the same (if I remember correctly) exercise selection, proposes a hypertrophy protocol.

This was a “aha”, moment for me. Not the only strength protocol of SF or in the world, not the first or the only Hypertrophy protocol, but seeing them together is a fantastic education on its own. Otherwise you are always a bit confused about strength versus hypertrophy as a beginner.

 

[wespom9]

What is "super high"?


I'm also curious what you're basing your strength percentile data on.

re: super high - I really don't know! Without a true deep dive into the literature, my gut would say ~75% is more than fine for longevity? This is an area I'm extremely curious of

re: strength data, I'm going by grip strength/leg extension data that is the typical lab based strength measure. Otherwise we are getting into skill based stuff. Also comparing to population, not intermediate lifters who are an abstraction of the population

147 pounds and a certified instructor yes, I would agree that you should be quite lean. You did a lot of snatches with a relatively a very very good size of KB for your body weight sir.

For the record, I have completed SFL and SFB. No official snatch test for me yet.

Regarding muscle vs strength - this study is the one I reference most, but there are a few out there on the topic: Associations of Muscle Mass and Strength with All-Cause Mortality among US Older Adults - PubMed particularly figure 2 for a nice visual on LMS (low muscle strength) vs LMM (low muscle mass)

 

[watchnerd]

re: strength data, I'm going by grip strength/leg extension data that is the typical lab based strength measure. Otherwise we are getting into skill based stuff. Also comparing to population, not intermediate lifters who are an abstraction of the population

Thanks.

Do you have a source handy for the those metrics?

 

[Steve Freides]

I love this. It is a matter of choice… very healthy way of looking in to hypertrophy.

I agree, it's a matter of choice, based on personal preference, your chosen sport or occupation, and whatever else matters to you.

PTTP was the first resource that I have seen(not claiming anything this way or the other), that prescribes a strength training program and then with the same (if I remember correctly) exercise selection, proposes a hypertrophy protocol.

Yes, PTTP is still an excellent resource. I never did the hypertrophy protocol but I explained it to my younger son, and he and his friends used the protocol for their bench press with excellent results in both strength and hypertrophy. I didn't even prescribe the exact reps and sets they should do, but they worked it out for themselves based on my 'do a couple of heavy sets on long rests, the back off the weight about 20% from your first set and do more sets but on shorter rests.' I think they ended up doing the backoff sets as 7 reps each because that seemed better to them, and for BP, I'm not surprised by that.

This was a “aha”, moment for me. Not the only strength protocol of SF or in the world, not the first or the only Hypertrophy protocol, but seeing them together is a fantastic education on its own.

PTTP remains a touchstone for me still. I recently reread it and I do that every few years.

-S-

 

[wespom9]

Thanks.

Do you have a source handy for the those metrics?

Table 3 Reference values for selected percentiles for maximum grip strength (in kilograms), by sex and age, based on reference equations for Canadians aged 6 to 79 is Canadian Society of Ex. Phys (CSEP, which is basically our equivalent of ACSM).
Leg extension tests are primarily research based, so hand grip is the most common out of lab measure. I don't have off hand studies for that.
Vertical jump is a common out of lab leg power measure, although it's a little tougher to measure accurately and there are safety concerns with older adults. There are studies (again sorry don't have right now) that show strong enough correlation between grip/lower body measure that you may not need to do both to get a valid assessment

 

[Ege]

re: super high - I really don't know! Without a true deep dive into the literature, my gut would say ~75% is more than fine for longevity? This is an area I'm extremely curious of

re: strength data, I'm going by grip strength/leg extension data that is the typical lab based strength measure. Otherwise we are getting into skill based stuff. Also comparing to population, not intermediate lifters who are an abstraction of the population



For the record, I have completed SFL and SFB. No official snatch test for me yet.

Regarding muscle vs strength - this study is the one I reference most, but there are a few out there on the topic: Associations of Muscle Mass and Strength with All-Cause Mortality among US Older Adults - PubMed particularly figure 2 for a nice visual on LMS (low muscle strength) vs LMM (low muscle mass)

Thanks for explanation and for the research. I think all those discussions are great.

My learning is, my current path offered as a beginners path in SF is solid. I am taking my cardio more seriously and will stick to Pavel’s teachings on this matter by using the practical talk test and rucking.

And I think time for me to re-read Simple and Sinister book to recuperate from too much information

 

[TimothyGander]

More than one study has shown that being slightly overweight is associated with reduced all cause mortality. Somewhere around the lower 1/3 of the overweight rating span on a BMI calc IIRC. The size of these studies would tend to rule out the findings being noise from too many lean muscular “overweight” participants.

A hypothesis: maybe the excess mass of the "healthy overweight" isn't either bodyfat or muscle, but other organs? Many stresses can cause protein breakdown and that effect isn't limited to muscle. Anecdotally, my wife has remained in the normal BMI range while having probably over 40% body fat and in the process of dropping to about 20% has actually gained 5 lbs.

 

[Steve Freides]

@TimothyGander, for a lot of people, BMI isn't a good metric for anything. Look at me - I'm near the top of the recommended age for my height, and there's no way that my body mass should be near the top of anyone's scale. I just did my BMI and it's 24.9, and that's exactly the top number for normal; 25.0 and I'd be considered overweight.

Calculate Your BMI - Standard BMI Calculator

Standard Body Mass Index calculator.

www.nhlbi.nih.gov

-S-

 

[wespom9]

More than one study has shown that being slightly overweight is associated with reduced all cause mortality. Somewhere around the lower 1/3 of the overweight rating span on a BMI calc IIRC. The size of these studies would tend to rule out the findings being noise from too many lean muscular “overweight” participants.

If I recall correctly, one of the confounding factors in this is that many older adults are unwell already; many people captured in the 'lean' category could be there due to weight loss from chronic health issues. So some those who look healthy are actually not, making the 'slightly overweight' look a little better. Not saying this is 100% true, or that it makes @North Coast Miller 's comments not true, but I have read a few different places that this is a legitimate consideration of the data

 

[North Coast Miller]

If I recall correctly, one of the confounding factors in this is that many older adults are unwell already; many people captured in the 'lean' category could be there due to weight loss from chronic health issues. So some those who look healthy are actually not, making the 'slightly overweight' look a little better. Not saying this is 100% true, or that it makes @North Coast Miller 's comments not true, but I have read a few different places that this is a legitimate consideration of the data

I’ve read a bunch of the criticism leveled at the original research published in JAMA. A few years later the CDC took another look and the trend survived the removal of all sorts of possibly confounding conditions.
To me, I look at this as not only plausible but likely. While many very lean individuals are perfectly healthy, the human on average is maybe a little less stressed at a cellular signalling level when carrying some extra stores. IDK

 

[North Coast Miller]

@TimothyGander, for a lot of people, BMI isn't a good metric for anything. Look at me - I'm near the top of the recommended age for my height, and there's no way that my body mass should be near the top of anyone's scale. I just did my BMI and it's 24.9, and that's exactly the top number for normal; 25.0 and I'd be considered overweight.

-S-

BMI is useful if looking at low values / bodymass since there’s only one way to find yourself falling off the bottom of the curve - you’re starving.

There’s a bunch of ways to come in high, I’m currently well into the “overweight” category, at my heaviest was only 2lbs from “obese”.

 

[wespom9]

To maybe further my comment on muscle mass relationship to mortality, there are a few values in studies that typically get looked at.

Total lean mass
ALM, or appendicular lean mass (sum of arms + legs; does not include torso).
ALM/height (m2)
ALM/BMI
Here's a great study that looks at this data in a large cohort: Body composition reference ranges in community‐dwelling adults using dual‐energy X‐ray absorptiometry: the Australian Body Composition (ABC) Study check out figure 2

I actually don't know, or don't have right now, any studies that directly contrast relationship of one score to the other when predicting mortality. I'm sure it's out there though

My educated guess is ALM/BMI is most predictive of mortality, because it captures two things - muscle mass, and overall weight (so fat included). ALM/height doesn't capture body fat, which high values would take down mortality (theoretically but I'm willing to assume this bears out in the literature). Same with total LM or total ALM. That being said, it's taking other values so confounds the question of muscle mass to all cause mortality risk. Is ALM/height? we have to take body size into account (just like body fat). But interestingly some studies on this don't use a lm/weight score, like body fat/weight is typically used for fat measures.

As mentioned I'm ~67 kilos, but very low BF%. My values (measured today via InBody bioelectrical impedence) would place me 'below average muscle mass' according to Figure 2 in the above study for:

total lean mass (I'm 54.8 kg),
ALM (26.76)
ALM/height (8.54)

but very good in
ALM/BMI (1.26)

The conundrum is, how do we find the curve for amount of muscle mass best for longevity? Am I at risk because of the first 3 calculations
, or am I sitting pretty with the last calculation? It's probably a balance.

 

[watchnerd]

Table 3 Reference values for selected percentiles for maximum grip strength (in kilograms), by sex and age, based on reference equations for Canadians aged 6 to 79 is Canadian Society of Ex. Phys (CSEP, which is basically our equivalent of ACSM).
Leg extension tests are primarily research based, so hand grip is the most common out of lab measure. I don't have off hand studies for that.
Vertical jump is a common out of lab leg power measure, although it's a little tougher to measure accurately and there are safety concerns with older adults. There are studies (again sorry don't have right now) that show strong enough correlation between grip/lower body measure that you may not need to do both to get a valid assessment

Thanks so much!

Given I don't have access to a grip testing machine (if there is such a thing), how would I test at home?

My first thought was that it can't be as simple as the ability to hold an object of said weight, but maybe I'm over-thinking it.

 

[Boris Bachmann]

Thanks so much!

Given I don't have access to a grip testing machine (if there is such a thing), how would I test at home?

My first thought was that it can't be as simple as the ability to hold an object of said weight, but maybe I'm over-thinking it.

Amazon product ASIN B00A8K4L84

 

[watchnerd]

Here's a great study that looks at this data in a large cohort: Body composition reference ranges in community‐dwelling adults using dual‐energy X‐ray absorptiometry: the Australian Body Composition (ABC) Study check out figure 2

Interesting. Looks like they also used Dexa.

My last Dexa had me at 172 lbs / 78 kg of LM, which is 12 kg more than the average male age 50.

Although still within the same boundaries of what they recorded (the highest was 84.7 kg).