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Old Forum Goblet squats to back squats. How to get lower?

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RobertS

RobertS

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All,

I've been doing GSQs for years, going right the way down with no problems. But recently I've been trying to learn barbell back squats and am finding that I have difficulty getting any kind of depth without that counterbalancing weight. Any advice on getting down further?

Thanks.
 
You will never be able to get as low (safely) in a back squat as you can in a goblet squat. Just aim for parallel. I do goblets for a warm up and on light days, and back squats for work sets on heavy days. They complement each other well. Also, be aware of where you put the bar. I prefer low bar position, and I believe that is what is taught around here as well.
 
The counterweight in front allows greater hip flexion and knee flexion without as much ankle flexion necessary (dorsiflexion). The ability to do a full squat is also related to stance and length of lower limb segments and control of your spine. So work on ankle mobility and play with stance (width, toe angle, etc) as well as bar location (high vs. low). Go light and play around with your position in a safe way.  For what's it's worth, I found that ATG squats look cool, but they are an unforgiving mistress. "Never" seems a pretty absolute without knowing what you've already tried. You're just learning the movement, so take your time. Besides, what the rush to go further?
 
If you're trying to use the same foot position you use for the Goblet squat, it probably won't work.  Start with your feet further apart and your toes pointed outward about 30-35 degrees or so.  The biggest thing for depth in the low bar back squat is getting the femurs out of the way of your gut and your hip bones.  You can't do the train-track style feet forward Goblet squat foot position.  Wider, more turned-out stance; and force your knees OUT and hold them there.
 
Do you have the bar rather high or low?

A few things. Think of moving the bar in a vertical line down and up. The body figures out how to do that.

You could try front squats first. This is for most people more intuitive and if you screw up the barbell just falls in front of you. From front squats it's easy to go to back squats.

Additionally you can try with either of those to put some small weights plates under your heel. Most people can squat then to good depth. Of course work on your ankle mobility,  but using this "crutches" you can already work on the full squat movement.
 
This is all helpful, thanks. Opening & forcing out the knees out does improve things.

I have the bar pretty low – in fact if I don’t it’s very uncomfortable.
 
Robert-

have you had an FMS screen? That's your starting point, if you have what was your DS score?

If you have not done this yet it would cut the learning curve dramatically and reduce risk of injury and setback. You'll need your dorsiflexion checked, and depending on the practitioner a look at your internal and external rotation.

if the mobility is present to allow for proper unloaded squatting then your body doesn't have the stability/ motor control yet for that movement pattern, a proper regression will be the fastest approach to learning the squatting pattern.

Is your goal to squat a lot of weight or be healthy & strong?

stance, etc. will be determined by your structure, toes out, etc. may temporarily allow better squatting but could create compensations in the future, hence the health vs. strength question.

 

 
 
Marchese,

Squat advice from a powerlifting coach will be very different than that from an olympic lifting coach. For a normal person with average flexibility, imitating a deep high-bar olympic squat is going to be a disaster. If you want to improve flexibility to achieve it, then go ahead, but I don't see the benefit. Nobody needs to load heavy into a deep squat. That is why I recommended using the goblet squat to get the deep squat pattern, and the parallel back squat for strength. If I am not mistaken, this is also similar to what Pavel and other instructors around here teach and recommend. If you want to tell me I am wrong, at least come up with an explanation and don't just point out a few gifted outliers that are nothing like the general pollution in physical structure or ability.
 
I will agree w Scientist here.  A powerlifting style, wide stance, low bar back squat is essentially a deadlift pattern more than it's a squat pattern like the goblet squat, and the PL style squat is also the way to move the most weight.  When I trained PL style squats, the carryover to my DL was significant And I didn't have to DL as often as a result.

-S-
 
to Robert S.  - look up Kelly Starrett's mobility WODs and search for the 10 minute squat test.  it is a simple test of dropping into a full squat with no weight and holding it for 10 minutes.  once you can achieve the 10 minutes in proper form, go back to the bar and try your barbell squats again and i think you will see dramatic improvements in your ability to get low.  it should only take a week or 2 of daily practice to achieve the 10 minutes.

Scientist - my issue is your broad generalizations and statements made as if they apply to everybody just because you say so -You will never be able to get as low (safely) in a back squat as you can in a goblet squat. Just aim for parallel.  and Nobody needs to load heavy into a deep squat.  the original question was "any advice on getting down further?"  your response is DONT, that's pretty helpful.  then you tell us that for a normal person with average flexibility, imitating a deep high bar olympic squat is going to be a disaster, well so would trying to snatch a 32kg kettlebell - so we should teach the normal person not to try and improve themselves - thats what i get from your post and why i am up in arms.

There are plenty of benefits to gaining the flexibility which will allow you to perform a full squat and frankly, if you cannot get into this position then you have functional issues which should be addressed.

the benefits of heavy deep squatting far out weigh the benefits of squatting to parallel and stopping. practicing a movement over a full range of motion is almost always of greater overall benefit as compared to a partial movement.  if i am an athlete in any sport other than powerlifting i will derive greater benefit, from a strength and safety standpoint, performing the squat in a full range of motion, i will create a body that is more durable by going through a full range of motion, and i will be improving my tendon strength and muscles flexibility over a greater arc.  i post pictures of gifted outliers because it is important to show what we are capable of, i could've gone to a local olympic lifting meeting and taken pictures of a dozen amateurs warming up and showing similar form, albeit with less weight.  there are plenty of normal people in the population performing deep full squats with good form - it doesn't take much to learn.

Steve - what is it that Scientist said that you agree with?  the original post asked for help getting lower in his squat.

 
 
Marchese,

Just because someone asks for advice doesn't mean you have to help them toward that goal if you think it is better to avoid the goal. What if he had asked for advice on how to do heavy deadlifts with a bar starting below his toes on a platform, or how to be able to dislocate his shoulder as a party trick? Would you oblige?

Also, flexibility is not the only issue. People vary greatly in the proportions of limb segments and their acetabulum depth. Impressive olympic lifters worked hard and achieved great flexibility through training, but they also had structures that allowed it to be possible to start with. Many other young lifters were screened out or got injured along the way, and only those with the right structure, genetic tendency to be explosive, and the right work ethic survived.

Lastly, greater ROM is not always a good thing. We could deadlift at an extreme deficit with a round back or  bench with a cambered bar and stretch the shoulder back until something tears. There is a point where more ROM is harmful. I'm arguing that at parallel, or slightly below is right for most people. Some outliers might not even get that low, and others might get lower.
 
Bill - Goblet squats are not taught (at least I have never taught them that way) with the feet straight head

in fact the goal of the prying goblet squat is to find your squat stance - foot turn out etc...

 

All of this is conjecture without seeing the OPs squats

RobertS - Can you post video of your Goblet squat and Barbell back squat
 
Marchese, that the goblet squat and the barbell back squat are two fundamentally different things.  While the OP having a nice, deep goblet squat may rightly be considered a prerequisite to working on heavy barbell back squats, I don't think there is necessarily going to be a lot of carryover from one to the other.  To find one's barbell back squat depth, one needs to experiment with many of the same things as in the goblet squat, e.g., foot placement and foot turnout, but the results will be quite different, and certainly a much wider stance.

I think our OP is doing just fine - he should try to work with someone in person to help him find his back squat stance, and he may also simply need to practice more to develop the position-specific flexibility needed to back squat to legal depth.

FWIW and a bit off-topic here, I've only trained my barbell back squat seriously once or twice in my 12 years or so of lifting, and when I did, I noticed a few things:

The right stance for me was one in which is was actually challenging to just get to legal depth - that's the stance that let me handle the most weight;

My deadlift went up;

I was hungry all the time and it would have been a great way for me to move up a weight class if that was my goal.

In fact, the reason I stopped training it was just that, I was already starting to put on some muscle weight that I didn't want at the time.  Now, having just turned 60, hypertrophy training is more necessary because it's more about keeping muscle than building it, and I may yet revisit the PL style back squat in my training in the future.

To the OP: Please follow Brett's suggestions - have movement screen done, work with someone in person on your squats, and post video here of both your goblet and barbell back squats.

-S-
 
Scientist - my issue is with your use of "never" and "safely" in your original post.

Steve - from my perspective, the goblet squat, the front squat and the back squat are all fundamentally the same, they are all based on the squat, just different derivations.  the goblet squat and a barbell curl are fundamentally different.

i'm really not trying to be antagonistic, but the words everyone, always, never and nobody get me riled up.

have a great day.  be strong.

 
 
Marchese,

We disagree. To me, the only major benefit of a barbell back squat (compared to other squats) is the ability togo heavy. I really don't think that any recreational athlete will ever safely go as low with a heavy bar on their back as they can with a KB goblet squat. I would be open to seeing a video of you or someone you work with (not a video of a professional olympic lifter) go a#@ to heels with a 1.5 - 2x bodyweight back squat without their lower back rounding or heels coming off the ground. If something is a 1/1,000+ event, I find never to be close enough to accurate. I think that fits here, but I could be wrong.
 
Marchese, I don't agree.  A goblet squat bears a lot of resemblance to a front squat, and even to a high bar back squat, but what powerlifters do is at least as much of a hip hinge as it is a squat.

-S-
 
Should we get back to the question that was actually asked?  I am not very knowledgeable, but what helped me improve my range of motion in my squat was doing back squats 4-5 days each week with very light weights, just two sets of 5.  I really liked what it did for both strength and flexibility.  Squatting frequently helped me stay loose between squat days rather than getting tight and sore and kind of having to start all over again.
 
Is this related to what I think Dr Stuart McGill has talked about with the structure of the femur/hip and how some people will struggle to get lower/ to parallel?  I think Polish people have genetically  gifted squatting hips, anglos not so.
 
http://www.strongfirst.com/topic/squat-depth-and-tail-tucking/

Long thread I was in on.  What's working now is no shoes, no belt, very deep or ATG, but pretty light, 185- 225 @205.  Swing to warm up.
 
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