Old Forum Heavy Kettlebell Swings for Gymnasts/BW Athletes/Movers

[xagunos]

So as a mover that generally prefers to practice further complex BW skills, I have been experimenting with different ways to load the lower body in order to produce power. It is widely accepted that the barbell is king simply because it is so simple to comfortably get under the bar and squat heavy and reap the benefits; or maybe hit up some speed/power work in the form of olympic lifts. The issue say for a gymnast or mover is either the complex olympic lifts require time to practice or the additional hypertrophy gained in the legs from squatting.
Thanks to Bret Contreras, I learned of heavy kettlebell swings which still trains power in the lower body while not packing as much mass as maybe barbell squats would. In terms of human anatomy/physiology, the hips crave strength/power first and endurance second and heavy kettlebell swings seem to build both. I also could care less about increasing my squat max as I rather train to improve my sprinting, jumping, kicking etc.
Now I have buzzed around talking about this idea a bit and seemed to get good responses for it but some believe the limiting factor for this method is the grip angle compared to pulls which would prevent the posterior chain from getting the most out of the movement. I argue that the deadlift is no different and grip will generally be the limiting factor as well as the beating your CNS takes every time you hit heavy deadlifts. Also kettlebells can widely be seen as a conditioning-only tool from the outside-in. I think this depends on finding the correct weight for an individual.
What are your guys thoughts on the topic? Would be awesome to hear Pavel’s opinion! Also, does anyone have any idea the percentage one’s heavy KB swings (please clarify rep range) should be in relation to a squat (please clarify high-bar, low-bar, front etc.) or deadlift?

 

[Journeyman]

A very interesting topic, for sure. I can see you've been reading/following Ido Portal.

Re: time for skills practice--no one has the final word on what the 'ultimate generalist' or 'ultimate human mover' should look like. If you spend plenty of time working upper body skills, there is no reason to avoid spending at least part of your time practicing the skills of weightlifting as well. The main concern there would be overloading the shoulder girdle with a high volume of ring/parallette/HS work combined with snatches/C&J. A combination of weightlifting style pulls and squats with the gymnastics would be one approach... a Barry Ross style ultra low volume easy strength type of back squat OR deadlift routine would be another... very heavy one arm kettlebell swings combined with barbell front or high bar back squats would be a third.

In terms of mass gain, the movement matters less than the methodology of training, and of course the nutrition factor. It is possible to put on some PC mass with kettlebells, though not as easily/efficiently as with the barbell.

As for the hips 'craving' power first and endurance second... the jury is still out on that, imo. In the history of human development we have been shown to have a curious natural affinity for feats of ultra-endurance, perhaps more so even than extreme strength feats, as a group....

With a one arm swing yes, the grip would be a limiting factor. This could also be a potential benefit, though, as the transition of bilateral lower body force through a single arm is pretty usable in a wide variety of situations. Two arm swings can be loaded pretty ridiculously heavy without grip being much of a limiting factor, especially if you choose your bell/T handle size well.

An aside--coach Sommer has referenced the use of dumbbell swings for developing general posterior chain strength and power before.

Re: the deadlift--if the deadlift is used to build itself (again, perhaps with a minimalist Barry Ross type protocol) grip probably won't be the weak point. If it is, and you want the overload, a well trained hook grip or even straps could be the answer for someone who wants to save their hands as much as possible. A CNS beating, well, that depends in part on your pulling stance and leverages, what sort of RPE you're using, and whether you need to control the eccentrics. Which might be another reason to go after the weightlifting pulls (clean or snatch pulls to the waist/stomach/chest and dropping the bar) if possible.

Re: percentage of kb swings to sq/dl--impossible to say. Depends on leverages, weak points, how high the swing is, how many repetitions, how crisp, etc. etc.

There is a pretty fair body of anecdotal evidence in the SF community that a fair level of basic deadlifting power (1.5 for females, 2x for males) can be built on a base of heavy swings alone with no DL *if* the deadlift form mimics the swing (i.e. generally a narrow sumo stance) and the individual has good pulling leverages.

 

Finally--if you care less about sq/dl than your sprinting/jumping/kicking, you will reach a point of diminishing returns using both the bar and kb. I recommend picking a single path forward, reaching that point as soon as possible, and then returning to your main focus(es) while doing as little as necessary to maintain your new base of lower body power.

Anthony Mychal and Jon Call/Jujimufu would be the first two people I'd look to for information, were I in your shoes.

 

[xagunos]

Good stuff Aris! Only one question: why the 1 arm swing over 2 arm swing?

 

[Journeyman]

If it's paired with the squat. The squat will provide the bilateral overload, full range knee flexion, leg power... the swing, more grip and lat benefits as well as that transfer of power out through one hand. That combo doesn't cover all bases but does cover a lot and probably won't crush you as much as a heavier deadlift/pull trained concurrently with the squat.

If you were just swinging, I'd prioritize heavy 2Hsw but still keep some 1 hand stuff in there.

 

 

[AleksSalkin]

I really couldn't have said it any better than Aris.  Moreover, in my experience kettlebell swings for moderately heavy weight and moderately high reps (100 or so) done a few times a week seem to fit well in just about any program.  I'm saying this as a bodyweight fanatic, btw.  Same goes to double kettlebell front squats.  Kettlebell ballistics just make my body feel strong and powerful (not to mention far better than when I'm not doing them).

Bottom line: I wouldn't overthink it.  Add 2-3 days a week of up to 100 explosive-as-possible swings done for 10-20 reps and you'll wonder how you ever thought you could do without them.