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How much running can you do while gaining muscle?

Westtxco

Level 1 Valued Member
Hey yall,

I am planning to work my way up to a marathon at some point, from a new runner. Additionally, I am working through the giant and later on other kb programs to gain mass.

I have seen folks say they can race 5ks and keep gaining mass, but you’re not able to train for a marathon and gain mass.

What level of running can I do weekly without inhibiting mass gaining from lifting?

What point, between a few zone 2 jogs a week and high mileage marathon prep runs, is sustainable?
 
If we sidestep the issue of running injuries completely, which would really complicate this discussion, I would say that 20 mi a week or less would be easily sustainable by most people. Somewhere between 20 and 40 miles per week is where it would likely start to become an issue. A younger man would be able to handle more mileage. Optimizing recovery and nutrition would allow you to handle more mileage and still gain mass.
 
You'll reach a point where you're unable to recover and/or eat enough to gain muscle mass. Where that point lies is very individual, but serious training for a marathon will almost surely push you past it. For me, when I push past ~30k per week I'm unable to gain mass. Strength can still be gained though.
 
Westtxco said:
Hey yall,

I am planning to work my way up to a marathon at some point, from a new runner. Additionally, I am working through the giant and later on other kb programs to gain mass.

I have seen folks say they can race 5ks and keep gaining mass, but you’re not able to train for a marathon and gain mass.

What level of running can I do weekly without inhibiting mass gaining from lifting?

What point, between a few zone 2 jogs a week and high mileage marathon prep runs, is sustainable?
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I mean it depends where you’re starting mass wise and how competitive you want to be with your marathon time. The bigger you already are, and the faster time you are working towards, are both going to work against gaining mass.

Ultimately the problem becomes eating to gain weight and having enough time for training. You’ll have to track your calories and your weight and if you’re not gaining - eat more. Or run less, but then you’re not really working towards your marathon goal…


Highly recommend looking up Alex Viada, his book The Hybrid Athlete, and his company Complete Human Performance.
 
Thank you, everyone. Great input. I am thinking maybe I should do both each year for a couple years. Focus on strength but still run for half a year, focus on running but still lift for half a year. Bout to hit up the library so I’ll have to look up that book and some others. Either way I need to hit a decent double KB c&p standard first.

A marathon is on my recently created bucket list, so I have time to think about it (37 now).
 
I think adding mass is harder for me than running, so perhaps I will make that the main focus prior to long term running goals.
 
If gaining muscle means something within normal amounts (eg muscular compared to the average person) and training for a marathon means ‘being able to finish one’, then I would see no conflict (other than the time needed to train and the sheer amount of food that would be needed, as mentioned by others ).

If EITHER is being pursued at a high level, then probably a recipe for disaster. (If you want to be huge or be a competitive runner, you will just have to choose between them)

But if you just want to be a fairly muscular guy who is able to complete a marathon, I think the best plan would be to focus on long easy runs for aerobic base as a long term strategy. This doesn’t seem to affect muscle growth much. You could then peak with much harder running for maybe 6-8 weeks before a race, and accept that you are not about to gain any muscle in that time.
 
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Not impossible of course. Plenty of bigger muscled runners who do distance, but competitively? Injury free? Were they runners before gaining size or the opposite? My nephew was a 2.45 marathoner. Built like a tank but he was a Royal Marine who didn't experience pain and had the mental fortitude to test his limits all the time. When he wasn't training his physical self he ate. All the time. Would fit the definition of a mutant. Compared to most of us, an outlier.
You're a new runner. What's the main thing? Marathon/running or size? With size comes mass comes weight. Distance runners are light and extra muscle is not necessarily a bonus, the opposite. Muscle interms of added mass is preferable to added mass from fat. So you are up against it. Train for size, a few easy runs....sure....build a bit of mileage and then if injury pain free adding distance is in the head. Or train for strength, get lean or leaner, be a better runner and focus on that. Or put on muscle and size but have no running goal other than to finish a marathon and that's doable, absolutely.

Chris Hall said:
You could then peak with much harder running for maybe 6-8 weeks before a race, and accept that you are not about to gain any muscle in that time.
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Yup.
Plenty of marathon finishers around who do not conform to the body image of a distance runner, excess weight from fat or muscle. But, unless you've trained for years, have military experience of carrying loads for long distance, finishing in a heap around the 5 hour mark is a job done. Which is fine. The resulting physiotherapy keeps the economy going.
 
Thanks, everyone!

I want to do the Bataan death march in a couple years and summit Mt Rainier somewhat easily the year after that, so I’m looking ahead. It seems that lots who have done Bataan have done a marathon, so it made sense to me.

Marathon and Bataan will be a one and done, I don’t intend to be competitive, just want to finish them both to check them off the list. I don’t want to be a competitive long distance runner (maybe competitive locally in 5ks, not long distance).

I appreciate the input, it puts things into perspective.
 
The last line, “finish a marathon with no goal other than to finish” is what I’m looking for. Apologies I didn’t make that more clear.
 
Westtxco said:
I have seen folks say they can race 5ks and keep gaining mass, but you’re not able to train for a marathon and gain mass.
Click to expand...
Just my 2-cents worth:

I used to run. I ran three half-marathons. (Best time 1:36:40.) I found the training bearable, e.g., a 10-miler every week or two, a few longer up to 15 miles building up to race day. But when I decided to train to run a marathon, I found the training all-consuming and gave up on it - I didn't feel like I could have any sort of life and do that training, and you're asking about adding muscle _and_ training for a marathon _and_, I assume, trying to function in a job and in social settings all the while.

IMHO, I'd pick a goal in one area of endeavor, train for it and achieve it, then put that into maintenance mode and work on achieving the next goal. As most people would, I think, find running easier when lighter, I'd get the marathon out of your system and then put your energy into doing some easy running while training for strength and/or hypertrophy.

I know there's a "hybrid" guy who seems to do both, but if you ask me, he's the proverbial exception that proves the rule, and by the time he's my age, I wouldn't be surprised if he'll have had his knees and hips replaced.

I remember talking to people over the years about ideal bodyweight for me: the runners all wanted me to weigh in the 130's (lbs) while the powerlifters all thought I should go for the 165 lb weight class. Me, I'm perfectly happy being able to sprint at will and otherwise focusing my energy on powerlifting in the 148 lb weight class, thus making no one happy. :)

JMO, YMMV.

-S-
 
Westtxco said:
The last line, “finish a marathon with no goal other than to finish” is what I’m looking for. Apologies I didn’t make that more clear.
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Well… there’s finishing, and there’s finishing. I’ve seen plenty of folks ‘finish’ a marathon, but they are like dead men walking. It’s more like the marathon finished them.

Summiting Rainier is a lot more complicated than finishing a marathon. There are a lot of skill sets (and gear) required, that go beyond the fitness requirements.
 
Definitely so on rainier and that’s a different topic, though my experience on multiple SAR, rope rescue, and wilderness EMS teams will give me a few percentage points of a head start.

Just focusing on the physical aspect for now. Mountaineering class a couple of years from now.

Awesome info and input y’all!
 
Westtxco said:
Hey yall,

I am planning to work my way up to a marathon at some point, from a new runner. Additionally, I am working through the giant and later on other kb programs to gain mass.

I have seen folks say they can race 5ks and keep gaining mass, but you’re not able to train for a marathon and gain mass.

What level of running can I do weekly without inhibiting mass gaining from lifting?

What point, between a few zone 2 jogs a week and high mileage marathon prep runs, is sustainable?
Click to expand...
Since you mentioned starting from new, ck. out this jogging ladder from Al Ciampa.
I used it recently for knee rehab/setting a base. IMO, excellent.

 
In terms of putting on muscle

Where are you at now?
Where do you plan to go?
What size bells are you using?
 
John K said:
I mean it depends where you’re starting mass wise and how competitive you want to be with your marathon time. The bigger you already are, and the faster time you are working towards, are both going to work against gaining mass.

Ultimately the problem becomes eating to gain weight and having enough time for training. You’ll have to track your calories and your weight and if you’re not gaining - eat more. Or run less, but then you’re not really working towards your marathon goal…


Highly recommend looking up Alex Viada, his book The Hybrid Athlete, and his company Complete Human Performance.
Click to expand...
I'll second Alex Viada's book. He's a friend of mine and I know him pretty well. He's pretty much the expert when it comes to what you are asking. (He's also a muscular beast who happens to excel also at distance running)
 
Westtxco said:
you’re not able to train for a marathon and gain mass.
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Marathon Runners

Correct, Marathon Runners are not going to gain mass.

Marathon Runners and other distance athlees want and need to keep their weight down.

Weighing less ensure their times are better.

The same is true with Sprinters

Dr Keith Baar

Dr Keith Baar, in a pervious post on this forum, went into how Track and Bike Sprinters focus keeping their weight lower.

They do so by limiting Upper Body Mass, which is not used, needed in sprints. Upper Body Strength Training is performed but Upper Body Hypertrophy is limited in Training.

mprevost said:
20 mi a week or less would be easily sustainable by most people.
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Less Is Better

20 miles of Running a week is a lot.

Strength and Hypertrophy Interferrance

" The interference effect is body-part specific. That is, cardio involving the lower body (like cycling or running) impacts lower-body strength and size adaptations, not upper-body strength and size adaptations." How to Combine Cardio and Weight Training to Overcome the Interference Effect.

Thus, too much distance running impairs lower body Strength and Hypertrophy development. However, does little to impede Upper Body Strength and Hypertrophy gains.

This is some additonal information on Running and it's effecs on Gaining Muscle Mass by Dr Michael Ruldoph.

Controlling AMP-k and mTOR for Maximum Muscle and Fat Loss
Muscular Deveopment Magazine, 2015

1) Resistance Training stimuless Strength and Hpertrophty via mTOR; Anabolic Effect.

2) Too much Cardio blocks (mTOR) gains in Strength and Hyhpertophy via AMP-k. Cataboli, Fat Burning Effect.

Research determined individual who first perform Resistance Training, immediate followed by Cardio (too much) negated gain in Strength and Hypertrophy.

The Recommendations

1) Perform Cardio first, take a slght break and then perform Strength and/or Hypertrophy Training.

The downside is that performing Cario first takes something out of an individual Strength and/or Hypertrophy Training.

2) Perform Cardio and Strength/Hypertrophy Training on sepearate days.

3) Perform Cardio in let's say the morning and Strength/Hperetrophy in the afternoon, or vise versa.

The See-Saw Effect

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1) Strength, Power and Speed are on one side of the See-Saw

2) Endurance Training is on the other end of the See-Saw.

The Training Protocol of one is completely different from the other.

When one goes up side on the See-Saw the other goes down.

Concurrent Training

gcperformancetraining.com

Concurrent Training: Science and Practical Application — GC Performance Training

Concurrent Training is the combination of resistance and endurance training in a periodized program to maximize all aspects of physical performance. This article will review the science behind concurrent training and help you get the most out of your training sessions.
gcperformancetraining.com gcperformancetraining.com

The combination of resistance and endurance training in a periodized program to maximize all aspects of physical performance.

Usually, this approach enables an individual to be well rounding in both; a "Jack of All Trades and Master or None.
 
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