North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
Pretty sure I've come across articles that made the same claim about fatty foods, at least in animal studies.
Nutrition How to make fasting tolerable?
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Benjamin Renaud
Level 8 Valued Member
Studies don't always reflect the real world. Sometimes emotional factors come into play in real life that aren't reflected in studies, especially animal studies.
Addiction is a very complex topic, be it to drugs, sugar or fat. One that probably can not be reduced to simple comparison to animal studies.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
I'm just addressing the claim re sugary foods. I don't buy it, for sugary or fatty foods, at least not compared to heroin or cocaine - having known people hooked on both.
Fatty foods may cause cocaine-like addiction - CNN.com
Scientists have finally confirmed what the rest of us have suspected for years: Bacon, cheesecake, and other delicious yet fattening foods may be addictive.
www.cnn.com
Benjamin Renaud
Level 8 Valued Member
Neither do I, but for people addicted to food it might easily seem that way. To each his personal struggles. I will not be one to lessen the hardship of someone's addictions.I'm just addressing the claim re sugary foods. I don't buy it, for sugary or fatty foods, at least not compared to heroin or cocaine - having known people hooked on both.
Fatty foods may cause cocaine-like addiction - CNN.com
Scientists have finally confirmed what the rest of us have suspected for years: Bacon, cheesecake, and other delicious yet fattening foods may be addictive.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
Fair enough.
Pasibrzuch
Level 6 Valued Member
Thank you for so many valuable answers!
The concepts of metabolic flexibility and glucose dependence are new to me. Is achieving the former and "freeing" oneself from the latter possible while not on strictly ketogenic diet? I'm ovo-vegetarian, having eggs for a late breakfast and some legume-wholegrain/starches-vegetable meal(s) later in the day. Would I have to limit carbs further?
Full-blown keto and eating meat is a no-go for me, but I'm willing to learn about different diets' influence on the body.
@Don Fairbanks , yes, I consume yerba every morning. Is it the root of the problem?
The concepts of metabolic flexibility and glucose dependence are new to me. Is achieving the former and "freeing" oneself from the latter possible while not on strictly ketogenic diet? I'm ovo-vegetarian, having eggs for a late breakfast and some legume-wholegrain/starches-vegetable meal(s) later in the day. Would I have to limit carbs further?
Full-blown keto and eating meat is a no-go for me, but I'm willing to learn about different diets' influence on the body.
@Don Fairbanks , yes, I consume yerba every morning. Is it the root of the problem?
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
I'm sorry, but there is no such thing as "glucose dependence" in an otherwise healthy human being.
You woul die very rapidly if you could not power most of your resting energy needs with lipids, even on a carb heavy diet.
Exercising individuals are already very metabolically flexible.
You would have to be sedentary, very lowfat and in heavy carb surplus to meaningfully impair lipid metabolism.
You woul die very rapidly if you could not power most of your resting energy needs with lipids, even on a carb heavy diet.
Exercising individuals are already very metabolically flexible.
You would have to be sedentary, very lowfat and in heavy carb surplus to meaningfully impair lipid metabolism.
Benjamin Renaud
Level 8 Valued Member
I can see how going low carb can be a challenge for an ovo-vegetarian.
Try and eat a bit earlier in the evening before when you plan on fasting and start by skipping breakfast only and see how you feel. 6pm to noon will get you an 18 hour fast. That's a decent start.
Also try the lightly salted water. A pinch of salt is enough, fancy pink Himalayan or regular table or sea salt will do.
I've personally never had problems with caffeine and fasting.
Rumsmike
Level 6 Valued Member
You do not need to be on a ketogenic diet. I eat carbs, mostly the good slow types, but weekends often involve the bad fast types. I generally don't eat on Mondays (36 hrs) and a few times per year I'll do multi day fasts up to five days.
I built up to this over time starting with intermittent fasting and have found it gets easier and easier. I fast with black coffee. I also supplement with salt on extended fasts and it does seem to make it easier.
BrianCF
Level 7 Valued Member
26 hours into a 40 hour fast. It is a muscle that needs to be trained. Start with 16, then move to 20, then 24.
It is not easy, but anything that is rewarding isn't.
Tips:
Eat a lot the night before, to the point of fullness. That way, you can remember the feeling while doing it.
Black coffee and drink a lot of water
Stay really busy. Do you errands. Especially during the witching hours AKA meal times
2 TBS of apple cider vinegar, 2 TBS of lemon juice with a glass of water when the hunger pangs don't want to quit
You can workout, but do a light one. Not the day to do the snatch test.
Stay out of the kitchen.
It is not easy, but anything that is rewarding isn't.
Tips:
Eat a lot the night before, to the point of fullness. That way, you can remember the feeling while doing it.
Black coffee and drink a lot of water
Stay really busy. Do you errands. Especially during the witching hours AKA meal times
2 TBS of apple cider vinegar, 2 TBS of lemon juice with a glass of water when the hunger pangs don't want to quit
You can workout, but do a light one. Not the day to do the snatch test.
Stay out of the kitchen.
Maybe. Your symptoms mimic caffeine withdrawal.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Let's revisit this...
Glucose Dependent
Individuals who are on a high carbohydratre diet are more reliant on glucose (carbohydrates) for fuel; less likely to burn body fat.
Also, if glucose is abundantly available, the body uses it because it require less work.
Absolutely
With Intermittent Fasting, the body is more adapt at accessing and utilizing body fat/ketones for fuel.
That has to do with...
Insulin
A High Carbohydrate Diet produces an an increase in blood sugar which triggers Insulin.
Insulin is a "Globally Anabolic Hormone"; that meaning it increases muscle mass as well as body fat.
Glucagon is one of the counter hormones to Insulin. For Glucagon levels to be elevated, Insulin levels need to be low.
With that said, Insulin is the dominate hormone. When Insulin is elevated, due to an increase in blood sugar, Glucogan is subdued.
Jay Robb, Nutritionist
As Robb stated, "Insulin is a Fat Maker and Glucagon is a Fat Taker".
The Hormonal See Saw
Think of Glucagon and Insulin as being on a See Saw. When one goes up the other goes down.
Intermittent Fasting
Abstaing from eating ensures Insulin levels are low; which produces an increase in Glucogaon (as well as some other Fat Burning hormones).
This ensure that body fat/ketones are being utilized primarily for energy in low level activities; very little glucose is use.
Research shows that a Fast of up to 72 hours primarily utilizes body fat/ketones rather that breaking down muscle mass.
It appears that between 16 to 24 hour is the sweet stop for Intermittent Fasting.
Bodybuilder Eating Every Three Hours
There are multiple issues with this method.
1) Research shows that "Grazing" all day long maintain an elevation in Insulin.
a) Insulin promotes fat gain.
b) Insulin circumvents Fat Burning; shuts down Glucagon and the other Fat Burning Hormones.
2) Refractory Muscle Protein Synthesis
Research shows that one of the keys to increasing muscle mass is the timing of Protein Consumption.
Dr Gabe Wilson, Layne Norton, etc determined that Muscle Protein Synthesis for increasing muscle mass is optimized with meals every 4-6 hours. At that point, the muscle is like a dry sponge; it soaks of the amino acids.
Meals/snacks every 3 hours are like a sponge that is still wet; less is soaked up.
No Carb Restriction
Skipping some meals means you are in a calorie deficit; you taking in less tnat you burn. So, eat as you like in your "Intermittent Feeding Periods".
Secondly, Intermittant Fasting increases your Metabolic Flexibility.
Let look an article that touches on your question.
Anabolic Flexibility
Metabolic Flexibility
Are you programmed to be lean and muscular? Here's how to find out where you stand, and what you can do about it.
Dr. MIke T. Nelson is one of the leading researcher on Intermittent Fasting.
Nelson goes into how one of his students lower body fat and increase muscle mass, while having some junk food along the way.
I recently received a very interesting voice mail from Adam, one of my current group of "lab wabbits." He said he'd lost over 20 pounds of body fat between November and July, dropping from 17% to 12% bodyfat while adding over 4 pounds of lean mass.
Now add to the equation that Adam was reportedly consuming plenty of "evil" carbs, red meat, and beer as he achieved these results – and that his results were about average in the group of test wabbits.
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Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Fatty Foods
www.cnn.com
This article is misleading.
Fat appears to be blamed when the diet was also high in sugar; cheese cake and frosting, etc.
Combining High Fat with High Sugar
As we know, combining a high fat diet with a high sugar diet magnifies the issue.
The combination drive appetite, which contributes to over eating, more calories than you need.
Weight Loss
The primary reason for gaining or losing weight is, if you are in a calorie surplus or deficit; regardless of the diet.
Mark Haub, MS, Nutritionist Kansas State
Haub illustrated that Calories Count by eating junk food in a calorie deficit. He lost 27 lbs in about 3 months.
The Sugar Issue
One of the issues with sugar is that it trigger hunger.
Over consumption of sugar produces an increase in Insulin.
Insulin blocks fat from being burned and stores whatever additional calories are consumed as body fat
Ketogenic Diet Satiety
One of the benefits of the Ketogenic Diet is that fat and especially protein provide satiety. That combined with low glycemic index/insulin index carbohydrates minimize hunger.
For that reason, individual on high fat/moderate protein/low carbohydrates usually consume fewer calories.
Fatty foods may cause cocaine-like addiction - CNN.com
Scientists have finally confirmed what the rest of us have suspected for years: Bacon, cheesecake, and other delicious yet fattening foods may be addictive.
www.cnn.com
This article is misleading.
Fat appears to be blamed when the diet was also high in sugar; cheese cake and frosting, etc.
Combining High Fat with High Sugar
As we know, combining a high fat diet with a high sugar diet magnifies the issue.
The combination drive appetite, which contributes to over eating, more calories than you need.
Weight Loss
The primary reason for gaining or losing weight is, if you are in a calorie surplus or deficit; regardless of the diet.
Mark Haub, MS, Nutritionist Kansas State
Haub illustrated that Calories Count by eating junk food in a calorie deficit. He lost 27 lbs in about 3 months.
The Sugar Issue
One of the issues with sugar is that it trigger hunger.
Over consumption of sugar produces an increase in Insulin.
Insulin blocks fat from being burned and stores whatever additional calories are consumed as body fat
Ketogenic Diet Satiety
One of the benefits of the Ketogenic Diet is that fat and especially protein provide satiety. That combined with low glycemic index/insulin index carbohydrates minimize hunger.
For that reason, individual on high fat/moderate protein/low carbohydrates usually consume fewer calories.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
Fatty Foods
Fatty foods may cause cocaine-like addiction - CNN.com
Scientists have finally confirmed what the rest of us have suspected for years: Bacon, cheesecake, and other delicious yet fattening foods may be addictive.
This article is misleading.
Compared to a study that found rats preferred saccharine to cocaine? Perhaps the rats don't like cocaine and interpret saccharine as actual food.
I would argue that neither fats or sugars are going to have anywhere near the effect in humans that cocaine, heroin or even alcohol do. To assert otherwise is to ignore the real-world effect on society and individuals from these substances and how they alter behavior in the addicted compared to sugar or fat.
Insulin is elevated in response to consumption of protein and/or carbohydrates. Its primary function is to store glucose and convert excess to glycogen.
In extreme carb overfeeding the body's resting energy expenditure can increase over 20% before any excess will be stored as fat, and even then at a top rate of 1/3 the original calorie load. In a regularly exercising individual there will almost always be excess storage capacity, so no glucose will be converted to fat and fat burning for maintenance will be far less effected since a surplus is required. The Cori Cycle is only about 30% efficient, even when reclaiming unconsumed lactate it cannot replenish glucose stores on its own.
This is why fat metabolism stays elevated for a day or longer following a single session of HIIT or any other significant glucose depleting activity, even when carbs are consumed.
A heavy carb surplus in a non-exercising individual will cause a large decrease in lipid metabolism as their body attempts to burn off the excess, since they have no empty stores to fill. A caloric surplus of fat or carbs will cause fat to be stored or existing stores left unused. In balance or in a deficit these factors disappear.
One of the advantages conferred by regular exercise is improvement in metabolism of carbs and fats due to upregulated enzyme production and increase in mitochondrial and capillary density - In case of lipid it is limited by cellular machinery - capillary and mitochondrial density, in case of carbs the improvement is qualitative and quantitative. Even if someone eats a high carb/ low fat diet, as long as they are not eating to a large surplus and exercise regularly they will have no problems metabolizing lipids, although they will tilt toward carb metabolism for more of their REE.
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silveraw
Level 9 Valued Member
Some recent research showed that for a slight majority of people a high carb diet provides more satiety. It seems to be pretty individualistic. I don’t think keto can claim it as a unique benefit resulting from the diet.
Very Low and Higher Carbohydrate Diets Promote Differential Appetite Responses in Adults with Type 2 Diabetes: A Randomized Trial - PubMed
In the context of energy restriction, both HC and VLC energy-matched diets promoted comparable effects on fasting perceptions of appetite, but the HC diet resulted in greater "daily overall" fullness and reduced prospective consumption. Further research is required to evaluate the effects of ad...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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Benjamin Renaud
Level 8 Valued Member
I've personally found that I was always hungry on a ketogenic diet, even after 3 months on it. I've always gained some fat on a higher carb diet. What seems like the sweet spot for me is low-ish carb but nowhere near keto, with high protein.Some recent research showed that for a slight majority of people a high carb diet provides more satiety. It seems to be pretty individualistic. I don’t think keto can claim it as a unique benefit resulting from the diet.
Very Low and Higher Carbohydrate Diets Promote Differential Appetite Responses in Adults with Type 2 Diabetes: A Randomized Trial - PubMed
In the context of energy restriction, both HC and VLC energy-matched diets promoted comparable effects on fasting perceptions of appetite, but the HC diet resulted in greater "daily overall" fullness and reduced prospective consumption. Further research is required to evaluate the effects of ad...
We're all made differently and react to things differently and have different schedules/occupations.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Snapshot Of Information
This is an interesting snapshot of information. However, this appears study appears to be geared more toward Type II Diabetics.
As the saying goes, the devil is in the details.
This provide more details that the Abstract...
Very Low and Higher Carbohydrate Diets Promote Differential Appetite Responses in Adults with Type 2 Diabetes: A Randomized Trial
ABSTRACTBackground. Effects of very low carbohydrate (VLC) diets on appetite response in individuals with type 2 diabetes remain unclear.Objective. A secondary
academic.oup.com
With that said, it down how well something works for you.
I Don't Think
As someone essentially said, "Your feeling and what you think don't matter but the fact do."
Ketogenic Diet Satiety
As research and anecdotal data have demonstrated low carbohydrate diets and very low carbohydrate diets (Ketogenic Diets) reduce hunger.
As we know, high carbohydrate diet increase blood sugar, which trigger a surge of insulin, which eventually leads to hunger.
That is one of the issues with individual graze throughout the day on carbohydrates, especially high glycemic index carbohyrates.
Thus, one of the keys of ensuring satiety is...
Maintaining Low Blood Sugar
That is accomplised with...
1) Fat Intake: There is virtually no increase in insulin release when only fat is consumed. Fat also promotes satiety; that due in part due to how long fat take to digest.
2) Protein Intake: Proten trigger a slight increase in insulin release. However, it is substantailly lower than carbohydrates.
Protein is also is the most Satiety Food there is.
Dr. MIke T. Nelson
Nelson is one of the leading resarchers of Intermittent Fasting.
Nelson's recommendation for someone who is hungry is to make it protein. Protein provide satiety over a long period of time.
That primarily because is subdues hunger. It also trigger a lower insulin response.
3) Fibrous Carbohydrate Intake:
a) Fibrous Carbohydrates are low in carbohydrates.
b) They have a low glycmic/insulin index rating; less insulin is released.
c) As you know, fiber slow down the diestitive process.
With that said, reseach shows that the fiber recommendation that are current promoted are based on the misinformation of poor research.
The A To Z Diet Research Study
This study examined diet went from A to Z; The Atkins Diet to the Zone Diet and everthing in between.
The study was performed by Dr. Christopher Gardner (a Vegan).
Gardener's research found that the Ketogenic Diet was the most effective for weight loss vs the Higher Carbohydrate Diet/Low Fat Diet.
The Interesting Part of The Research
Research after the study demonstrated that both groups modified their diet more toward the middle.
Those on the Ketogenic Diet increased their carbohydrate intake and decease their fat intake.
Those on the High Carbohydrate/Low Fat Intake Diet decresed their carbohydrate intake and increase their fat intake.
The study also determine the key to weight loss with all diets, is calorie restriction (calorie deficit).
This was clear demonstrate with by...
Mark Haub, MS Nutiriton, Kansas State
Haub lost 27 lbs on a junk food diet by consuming fewer calories.
Insulin And Satiety
One of the things that drives hunger is an elevation of insulin. Any diet that curb insulin increases satiety.
Jelly Beans For Satiety
Individual consuming a HIgh Carbohydrate Diet are Glucose Dependent. Many of these individual are constantly riding the "Insulin Roller Coaster".
When their blood glucose drops, they are "Hangry"; irratable due to being hungry. Being "Hangry" is somewhat similar to the DT's withdrawl of drug users.
Once a "Hangry" person get their fix, they are much nicer.
Research show that consuming a high glycemic index food, like Jelly Beans, quickly elevates their blood sugar and rids them of thier "Hangry" attitude.
Unfortunatly, it ensure they remain on the "Insulin Roller Coster".
For individual like this, as well as Diabetics, have a protein/fat snack is a much better option; it ensure that blood sugar level remain level for a much longer period of time in an optimal zone.
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Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Hunger On The Ketogenic Diet
Without more information, it hard to know why you were hungry on the Ketogenic Diet.
Hard To Know
Again, it hard to know without more information.
a) How did you determine that?
b) What is your definition of "A higher carbohydrate diet"?
Low-ish Carbs...with High Protein
This is a more realistic approch for the majority of individual.
The issue is that the more restrictive a diet is (like the Ketogenic Diet), the less likely someone is to maintain it.
Secondly, low carbohydrate intake ensure lower blood sugar level maintained. It allows individual to have some the food they enjoy.
Higher protein intake, provide more satiety.
LukeV
Level 7 Valued Member
My own experience over many years is that I can go longer without food on a ketogenic diet but I eat less food each meal when I'm ingesting carbohydrate. I suspect this is a volume thing and not a calories thing (except inadvertently), but I'm not sure. I rarely snack when I'm in ketosis so whatever I eat at a meal gets me through to the next meal, whereas I am more likely to snack between meals on higher carbohydrate. I've posted before that I spent a two year period consistently dieting but switching diets regularly. I found both low carb and low fat to be more or less equally effective as approaches. Perhaps this is because they both address calorie deficit but from a different pathway - low carb equals fewer eating episodes, low fat equals fewer calories per eating episode. I don't really know as I hadn't thought about it that way before
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