Jeff Roark
Level 7 Valued Member
With everything said, I am going to stick with what I do, because it tends to cover all the bases good enough for me. For power and mass, heavy weights for reps with a focus on poundage progression.
Hypertrophy Hypertrophy w/puddleduck
- Thread starter Jeff Roark
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puddleduck
Level 6 Valued Member
Not heard of Oliver… sounds similar to Borge’s approach although maybe you don’t do the ‘primer’ set by the looks of it. Have made a mental note of that; I do one myo reps session (literally just finished it actually) as a fourth workout to cover mostly isolation stuff that I don’t hit in my other ones.
This looks like it has slightly different application but could definitely be something I’d enjoy.
Edit: sorry, thought I was replying direct to @Kenny Croxdale - the Oliver I make reference to is from his post on previous page. Phone is messing up the thread order for me
This looks like it has slightly different application but could definitely be something I’d enjoy.
Edit: sorry, thought I was replying direct to @Kenny Croxdale - the Oliver I make reference to is from his post on previous page. Phone is messing up the thread order for me
A little late to join the party, but there is an article on StrongFirst saying that a lot of Beast-pressers, have around 3000-3600 kg weekly volume.
My Journey to the Beast: Pressing a 48kg Kettlebell | StrongFirst
That is my recommendation as well, keep the volume the same. So someone who presses a 16 can do a serious amount of volume with the 16. Someone who presses the 48, has to do a lot less. 62 reps with a 16, 20 with a 48, per session.
Edit: even Simple and Sinister has a reduction of volume, from nearly daily, to 3/4 per week after reaching Simple.
My Journey to the Beast: Pressing a 48kg Kettlebell | StrongFirst
That is my recommendation as well, keep the volume the same. So someone who presses a 16 can do a serious amount of volume with the 16. Someone who presses the 48, has to do a lot less. 62 reps with a 16, 20 with a 48, per session.
Edit: even Simple and Sinister has a reduction of volume, from nearly daily, to 3/4 per week after reaching Simple.
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Brett Jones
StrongFirst Director of Education
Master Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Beast Tamer
Sounds like Built Strong would be of interest to everyone on this thread and those who took time to read it.
Smau6785
Level 2 Valued Member
I can't but agree. I have been asking myself the same questions, been reading far too much about the topic, obsessing even. Built Strong makes it all easier without too much overthinking.
Little I knew about @Fabio Zonin Built Strong programs and after a really amazing mixed cycle of kettlebell-only BTS6/4/3 (had to scale it down due to injuries), I've restarted another one. I grew bigger (damn you Fabio, I have to buy another suit for my wedding now), my triceps and lats are inseparable now, my double floor press went up from 5 to 10RM and double front squat shot up from 4 to 11RM.
Mostly, I grew bigger.
3letterslong
Level 6 Valued Member
I'm actually very excited to do BuiltStrong, so I love hearing about people's results. Fantastic work!
StuKE
Level 4 Valued Member
That is a very impressive work capacity workout
Fitoldguy
Level 1 Valued Member
I began this work capacity workout as a result of a running related injury to both feet, that flared up during long trail runs. The workout is inspired by several sources, Rob SHAUL of Mountain Tactical Institute, Mark TWIGHT former owner of GYM JONES, and John JESSE's book (Wrestling Physical Conditioning Encyclopedia's section on Continuous Calisthenics and Circuit Training). I began using this program in September and stopped running hoping to heal the injury. At the end of this month, I will test my 5 mile run time on the trail run that I normally do, to determine the efficacy of this type of training and it's carry over to trail running, without the running. One of the side effects to this training program, has been a noticeable increase in my overall muscularity and leanness, as well as a significant increase on overall muscular / strength endurance and work capacity. As well, my strength has remained constant, squat 345 lbs for doubles, high pull 275 lbs for doubles, weighted dips, BW (150 lb) + 65 lbs, and the same for weighted chinups, both for doubles.
If I want to torture myself, I could achieve 60 rounds of the work capacity workout in 60 minutes, but I generally maintain a brisk, zone 2 pace when completing the workout.
WxHerk
Level 8 Valued Member
I love this book! It is a tremendous bang for the buck! Reading it is like the guy digging a hole who says “I’d dig a lot faster if all this gold wasn’t sticking to my shovel.”
Fitoldguy
Level 1 Valued Member
I completely agree. Back in the day when Greg GLASSMAN, Crossfit Founder, was inviting a lot of Special Force Operatives and SWAT Operatives, to attend his 3 day Crossfit Coaching Course at no cost, I was also an invited attendee to a course, and GLASSMAN spoke very highly about this book, and I think Mark TWIGHT also attended a course under similar circumstances, and he was also influenced to obtain a copy of this book. I would go so far as to speculate that this book may have been inspiration for much of the earlier programming presented in Crossfit.
StuKE
Level 4 Valued Member
I have around the same number of years training as Jeff Roark. Much of my experience is with relatively lower volume than many prescribe. Within a month or so of starting lifting, I ended up at a small gym in a double garage run by a family friend, ex British champion powerlifter. I got pretty strong pound for pound and I always tried to increase the load, and worked very hard.
That was then. Nowadays, at 50, despite being confident I learned and always used good form, lifting heavy, with low reps took its toll. Perhaps excessive volume can wreck the joints, but I am also sure decades of lifting heavy, even in low volume, moderate frequency programs can too. Not saying it will for everyone, but definitely for some.
I am still drawn to lifting heavy, it is fun (in a way), but I have to be very careful these days. The Stuart McRobert stuff is great, I read Brawn and Hardgainer, Beyond Brawn and liked the logic. This kind of training brings its own problems, it can get boring, it can be stressful knowing you have maybe 2 chances in a week to work your backside off and improve your performance on every movement. If you don't, it can be a bit depressing. Sometimes I am sure you get a rep or two more than the previous workout because you are having a good day - you are on top form and everything just flows. It might not the next session. There is little room for error or an off day, What I find hardest now though, is the feeling of being utterly drained after a workout and the following day or two. It makes me feel physically not too capable during those following days, irritable and just feeling unwell. Was not a problem in my 20s, 30s and early 40s, but it is now.
I haven't given up, I train hard and feel in good shape apart from various joint issues, but realistically you can't just keep putting weight on the bar week after week for decades. I don't really have a fixed routine, I do what I like and have my favourite movements of course, but I may shorten rest periods, do more reps, more sets, slower negatives, tighter form, different movements to keep myself working hard, in other words I don't worry too much about lifting more weight all the time. Having said that, my sandbag arrives tomorrow so I will be looking to do some pretty heavy work and see how it goes - I just can't avoid heavy lifting all together!
I must admit, being a fan of low reps - 3 to 6 , I am still surprised that some of you my age and older still train low reps. Not sure how you manage it, but fair play to you!
That was then. Nowadays, at 50, despite being confident I learned and always used good form, lifting heavy, with low reps took its toll. Perhaps excessive volume can wreck the joints, but I am also sure decades of lifting heavy, even in low volume, moderate frequency programs can too. Not saying it will for everyone, but definitely for some.
I am still drawn to lifting heavy, it is fun (in a way), but I have to be very careful these days. The Stuart McRobert stuff is great, I read Brawn and Hardgainer, Beyond Brawn and liked the logic. This kind of training brings its own problems, it can get boring, it can be stressful knowing you have maybe 2 chances in a week to work your backside off and improve your performance on every movement. If you don't, it can be a bit depressing. Sometimes I am sure you get a rep or two more than the previous workout because you are having a good day - you are on top form and everything just flows. It might not the next session. There is little room for error or an off day, What I find hardest now though, is the feeling of being utterly drained after a workout and the following day or two. It makes me feel physically not too capable during those following days, irritable and just feeling unwell. Was not a problem in my 20s, 30s and early 40s, but it is now.
I haven't given up, I train hard and feel in good shape apart from various joint issues, but realistically you can't just keep putting weight on the bar week after week for decades. I don't really have a fixed routine, I do what I like and have my favourite movements of course, but I may shorten rest periods, do more reps, more sets, slower negatives, tighter form, different movements to keep myself working hard, in other words I don't worry too much about lifting more weight all the time. Having said that, my sandbag arrives tomorrow so I will be looking to do some pretty heavy work and see how it goes - I just can't avoid heavy lifting all together!
I must admit, being a fan of low reps - 3 to 6 , I am still surprised that some of you my age and older still train low reps. Not sure how you manage it, but fair play to you!
Fitoldguy
Level 1 Valued Member
Incorporating a balance of bodyweight work with the weights, since I was in my 40's and 50's, up to now at age 64 has benefited me. Once you become conditioned to the higher volume bodyweight / work capacity workouts, it seems, at least in my case, the heavier training has less of a negative impact on the joints, etc..
puddleduck
Level 6 Valued Member
Although I’m a couple of years behind you so may well have to change, for me the key was picking movements that suited my aging frame. I’ve personally had to choose more machines along with some movements that I’d have frankly dismissed as nonsense a couple of decades ago.
WxHerk
Level 8 Valued Member
Please do elaborate!
puddleduck
Level 6 Valued Member
No probs!
So I herniated a couple of discs about 9 years ago. I was changing from a low bar PL squat to more of an Olympic style one and didn’t know my back was rounding until I popped it doing reps with a fairly moderate load, 130kg I think, which I could comfortably front squat for sets of 5 at the time so I was possibly being complacent…. Have never been able to do squats or conventional deadlifts since.
So my current favourite machine is the hip belt squat. I can load this up to 200kg (and more as I get stronger) with zero back issues. I also use this to perform one leg rdl’s. The stability is great and again I can load them quite nicely. Have also started doing reverse lunges with them which feel good.
Also like a pendulum squat machine. It’s very quad dominant and seems to cause no back issues. It might aggravate knees if they’re an issue, but you can adjust the depth to minimise this.
On top of those I like some of the hip thrust machines, along with more conventional staples like gh raise and back extension, and the unilateral version of the leg curl.
For upper body, after years of avoiding them, I preferentially choose the chest press machines in my gym over the bench now. It’s made by primal I think. If the starting position is too much of a stretch you can use blocks on the pads to reduce the ROM but I’m ok with the normal version. I sometimes add bands to these (though haven’t for a while).
Got a variety of chest supported row machines too with different handles to emphasise lats or upper back. Quite like this both unilateral and bilateral.
My other thing is to opt for cables over db’s for a lot of movements. I like the resistance profile and also avoids moving weights into position. So lateral raises, arm work etc all tend to get done with cables now
I’m writing all that like I’m totally frail. I’m not; I will use some free weights but just bias my workouts towards machines.
Touch wood I’ve avoided injury for a good few years now and still get some of the satisfaction I used to from lower rep work
So I herniated a couple of discs about 9 years ago. I was changing from a low bar PL squat to more of an Olympic style one and didn’t know my back was rounding until I popped it doing reps with a fairly moderate load, 130kg I think, which I could comfortably front squat for sets of 5 at the time so I was possibly being complacent…. Have never been able to do squats or conventional deadlifts since.
So my current favourite machine is the hip belt squat. I can load this up to 200kg (and more as I get stronger) with zero back issues. I also use this to perform one leg rdl’s. The stability is great and again I can load them quite nicely. Have also started doing reverse lunges with them which feel good.
Also like a pendulum squat machine. It’s very quad dominant and seems to cause no back issues. It might aggravate knees if they’re an issue, but you can adjust the depth to minimise this.
On top of those I like some of the hip thrust machines, along with more conventional staples like gh raise and back extension, and the unilateral version of the leg curl.
For upper body, after years of avoiding them, I preferentially choose the chest press machines in my gym over the bench now. It’s made by primal I think. If the starting position is too much of a stretch you can use blocks on the pads to reduce the ROM but I’m ok with the normal version. I sometimes add bands to these (though haven’t for a while).
Got a variety of chest supported row machines too with different handles to emphasise lats or upper back. Quite like this both unilateral and bilateral.
My other thing is to opt for cables over db’s for a lot of movements. I like the resistance profile and also avoids moving weights into position. So lateral raises, arm work etc all tend to get done with cables now
I’m writing all that like I’m totally frail. I’m not; I will use some free weights but just bias my workouts towards machines.
Touch wood I’ve avoided injury for a good few years now and still get some of the satisfaction I used to from lower rep work
Jeff Roark
Level 7 Valued Member
You mention that you only have a couple chances to improve per week, I think this mentality that is embedded into the higher intensity crowd is one that does cause a bit of harm. The fact of the matter is that no one can improve weekly regardless if the plan is plain old boring Jane HGer style or Secret Russian Spetnaz Secret, ultra secret super exciting programs.
I follow more of a Dave Maurice mentality in regards to the application of HGer style training. He told me ages ago that failure will happen, but don't go looking for it. His advice was to keep 1-2 in the tank. I think when you constantly chase the limits with pushing to failure, which is as much mentally draining as it is physical, are where many of the problems lie. On several of the exercises I use I have used the same weight for a couple months now. It was as if they were never going to increase, and one would have thought "I must have plateaued" but it was like all of a sudden I started adding a reps to them with ease. I think that all of us one to get to the limits or the top way faster than our bodies want. Like the old AC/DC song, its a long way to the top if you want to rock-n-roll.
There is also another thing that so many tend to overlook in Stu McRoberts writings. He highly recommends cycling, allowing one to peak and back off. It allows for wounds, wear and tear to heal up a bit. Its probably the best method for the ones that don't have nearly as sturdy of joints and bone structures as others.
I am on my way to 49 years old and still handling moderately heavy weights. Sure I have some wear and tear, but I see gobs of sorry a#@ people that have never done anything that walk around bitching about everything hurting. It simply comes with age, maybe more so with some than others. I guess being an old Marine I have a bit more tolerance for pain than others so I seem to manage.