all posts post new thread

Nutrition IF, coffee and cortisol

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Ryan T

Ryan T

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Just wondering if anyone has any insight into the effects of coffee combined with IF on chronically elevated cortisol. I usually drink 3-4 cups of coffee in the AM regardless of IF vs regular feeding days. Provided that I'm not doing non-consecutive days, do you guys have any idea if the acute rise in cortisol will become chronic and undo the positive hormonal effects associated with IF?
 
I've been below 30 carbs a day since Tuesday with a 21 hour IF yesterday. Probably around 4 cups of coffee each morning. Last night, I had trouble falling asleep and staying asleep. I felt anxious and stressed even though I was relaxed and fine that day. I have no proof that it was due to elevated cortisol beyond an acute response for a daily stress, but I suspect it was.

Could be the lack of carbs on my current carb based metabolism. Could be the IF with the higher doses of coffee. Could be all three; too many variables. I'll be eating three square meals, training with more carb intake today. My guess is I will sleep better, but I won't be able to determine what the root cause or addressed it.
 
@Ryan T, I advise caution when reading any study on the effects of coffee. Different brewing methods, different roasts, different individual reactions to caffeine - all these make, IMHO, coffee drinking best suited to individual experimentation.

IF and low-carb both can have pretty brutal adaptation periods for some people. My advice is to pick one and not try both together.

-S-
 
Steve Freides said:
I advise caution when reading any study on the effects of coffee. Different brewing methods, different roasts, different individual reactions to caffeine - all these make, IMHO, coffee drinking best suited to individual experimentation.

IF and low-carb both can have pretty brutal adaptation periods for some people. My advice is to pick one and not try both together.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice on both counts Steve.

I'm not trying to become fat adapted or adopt a low carb eating strategy. My goal is to experiment with carb cycling, i.e., higher carb for training days and lower carb with IF on recovery days. Also ingesting cinammon on carb days to improve insulin sensitivity. Check out this article:
Chromium and polyphenols from cinnamon improve insulin sensitivity. - PubMed - NCBI

I've been doing IF off and on for years so it's not really new to me, but I did take a month to eat 3-5 times a day so perhaps I am adapting to it again.
 
Cinnamon - I put it in my coffee every morning.

Carb cycling - not a thing I confess to have much interest in for myself. We bought some keto strips a couple of weeks ago and found something interesting, and not terribly surprising, I supposed, given that my wife and I are both small people and in our 60's - sometimes just not eating much during the day will put us in ketosis. As close as she and I can figure, we both move pretty easily in and out of ketosis, and we think we adapted to it by adapting to IF.

-S-
 
Just happened to read something on this in the book When by Daniel Pink. It is a book about circadian rhythms and their effect on performance, not about diet/exercise so not a lot of detail. He claims that cortisol rises naturally upon waking and that coffee interferes with cortisol production. Therefore he suggest waiting 30-90m after waking up to have our cup-o-joe.

Thoughts?
 
Ryan T said:
While I have been wandering on the interwebz looking at this subject I actually came across some these articles:

Why The Best Time To Drink Coffee Is Not First Thing In The Morning

This is the best time to have your cup of coffee

I might try this and try to keep it to two cups and see how I sleep.
Click to expand...
I don't like these kinds of articles. They take a nugget of a finding from a research study (of unknown quality, usually with too few or too specific participants to be generalizable), then go right from correlation to causation.

Yes, a natural cortisol spike in the morning is what wakes up.

Yes, caffeine adds to the "wake up" hormone cocktail mix.

If there is a threshold of cortisol that is too high - do these articles/studies indicate coffee/caffeine in the morning puts most people well above a danger threshold?

If you are going low-carb, your body is having to learn how to power itself away from carbs from food and more toward releasing stored carbs (glycogen) and/or stored fat. I think that alone could explain your sleep systems.

Insulin also makes you sleepy (cues the slow, down, rest, digest, store energy side of your nervous system), so if you previously ate a carby dinner but now eat low-carb, you could actually get a jolt of energy (or rather, not a shot of sleepy, happy juice) from such a meal.
 
Personally I do not notice too many effects of coffee. I drink it because I enjoy the compex aromas but I could down a whole bucket and go to sleep right after.
That being said I drink two big cups daily before training and always in the fasting window (I usually have no food for 16-20h and then have two big meals within the remaining 8-4h). I seldomly have my coffee in the morning but rather in the afternoon/early evening when I come home.

What exactly do you mean by "chronic" elevated cortisol levels?
Have you measured your cortisol level?
If so, when/how often?

Like @Steve Freides said, choose either IF or low carb and get used to one first.
My advice would be IF.
Also, why excluding/limiting drastically a whole macronutrient? Carbs before bed will def decrease cortisol, increase serotonin and therefore will be beneficil for good mood and restful sleep.
 
Marc said:
What exactly do you mean by "chronic" elevated cortisol levels?
Have you measured your cortisol level?
If so, when/how often?
Click to expand...

Chronic means that your cortisol continues to remain elevated beyond a what would be a normal circadian rhythym or least for some days. Perhaps more than a couple days in a row. I haven't had any levels checked and that's probably a good idea. What I have been going by is my sleeping patterns and feelings of axienty when I am not under any more additional stress than normal.

Marc said:
Also, why excluding/limiting drastically a whole macronutrient? Carbs before bed will def decrease cortisol, increase serotonin and therefore will be beneficil for good mood and restful sleep.
Click to expand...

Not trying to decrease carbs overall, just on non-training days - so carb cycling. I been reading a decent amount from Precision Nutrition which suggests to mainly consume your carbs after training as your body is best primed to utilize them. I may discontinue that if I contine to have sleeplessness and feelings of anxiety. I had a good amount of carbs last night but still struggle with sleeping past 3:30 AM. I have nothing against carbs. Perhaps I am doing too many things at once.

IF is really in my wheelhouse. I feel great when I do it, but try not to do in more than every other day and take the weekends off.

Great feedback from everyone. Thanks.
 
Alright, don't worry! Your cortisol level are most def not elevated in a pathological way.
Easing into IF, as you do it right now seems reasonable. And remember, there is nothing wrong with 3 squares a day. Yes, IF seems to have some health benefits and is super convenient (at least for me), but ain't nothing magical about it.
If you have troubles with sleep, feel lethargic, don't have energy to train, don't make progress training-vise then that is usually a sign that you train too much and/or eat to little. So check for that again. As a general rule: train as little as possible while eating as much as possible and still achieving your goals. This will ensure longevity in all aspects.
In terms of macros (if you count them) I'd suggest: 0.8-1g protein/lbs of bw; 20-40% of your cals from fat and the rest of your cals from carbs.
 
I did IF for years. Don't recommend it anymore and don't like it. I find it too stressful. And I mean 24 and 40 hour fasts. 16 is not fasting in my opinion.

My issue is I eat TOO much food. What works best for me is stay away from bread, fruit, rice. Eat 3 squares, or 2 and a snack of almonds.

ACV helps with insulin. I have 3 cups of black coffee every morning before 8:30 and that's all I need.
 
I am a carb junkie, rice, bread, potato chips, are hard to stay away from, and fruit is the worst. Not to mention, an ice cold beer is amazing on a hot day. What is your take on oatmeal then? Just curious.

I was not aware of the positive impact ACV has on insulin. Guess I need to do some reading.

I tried the IF, wasn't a fan. Unlike you, however, I felt like 16 hours was fasting, just not that difficult. Again, I didn't care for it.

BrianCF said:
I did IF for years. Don't recommend it anymore and don't like it. I find it too stressful. And I mean 24 and 40 hour fasts. 16 is not fasting in my opinion.

My issue is I eat TOO much food. What works best for me is stay away from bread, fruit, rice. Eat 3 squares, or 2 and a snack of almonds.

ACV helps with insulin. I have 3 cups of black coffee every morning before 8:30 and that's all I need.
Click to expand...
 
Michael Scott said:
I was not aware of the positive impact ACV has on insulin. Guess I need to do some reading.
Click to expand...

Google Thomas Delauer and Apple Cider Vinegar. He's got several videos on it that include both the benefits of it and some drinks to make with it.

Michael Scott said:
I tried the IF, wasn't a fan. Unlike you, however, I felt like 16 hours was fasting, just not that difficult. Again, I didn't care for it.
Click to expand...

I enjoy IF 3x per week, MWF. Usually lasts 20-22 hours, which is enough to get some positive benefits for HGH and insulin sensitivity. Some folks do it on training days to increase fat burning. Personally, I am not doing that, because although I want to burn fat, I'm thinking it may hamper my strength gains.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom