Barbell Intermediate programming advice

[Johnsonville]

Hi, I am looking for some advice choosing a new program to do along side Muay Thai and bjj.

I’ve been doing starting strength then Andy bakers hlm for the past year with good results but the workouts are starting to take too long, I am stalled on almost everything since resuming boxing and bjj assuming from over training, and I’m just looking for something new. I really like the ideas pavel and Dan John lay out and am just seeing what’s out there other than a pttp type program, as I have a hard time getting myself to the gym every day and that frequency deadlifting bothers my back. My current stats are:
5’11”
200lbs
425 deadlift x1
160 press x1
225 bench x1
160 squat x1 due to patellar tendinitis making it hard to train

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!

 

[SuperGirevik]

Welcome @Johnsonville!

What are your goals? How would you rank the following in order of importance when training? Time, strength, endurance and hypotrophy.

 

[Johnsonville]

Welcome @Johnsonville!

What are your goals? How would you rank the following in order of importance when training? Time, strength, endurance and hypotrophy.

Thank you for the response! My goals are strength, time, endurance, hypotrophy

 

[SuperGirevik]

I haven't read the Reload book (link) yet but it might be worth checking out. But my concern is that you feel that Starting Strength was taking too long, which is a program ran only 3x per week and involves 3 lifts per workout at 3 sets of 5 reps (except for the deadlift which is 1 set of 5). That's not a lot of training compared to other programs.

You could also check out @Glen 's recommendation in this thread (link). He mentions doing 4 lifts at 5x5 but doing 2 on one day and the other 2 on a separate day.

 

[Anna C]

But my concern is that you feel that Starting Strength was taking too long, which is a program ran only 3x per week and involves 3 lifts per workout at 3 sets of 5 reps (except for the deadlift which is 1 set of 5). That's not a lot of training compared to other programs.

Incorrect assumption. Moving into HLM after Starting Strength LP, the sessions I did took up to 2 hours and were the hardest training I've ever done. And this was long after achieving Sinister.

My goals are strength, time, endurance, hypotrophy

Seems the pertinent question is: What is your strength goal relative to your current strength level? Do you want to continue getting stronger? Maintain and work on endurance? And on hypertrophy --for more lean mass, for strength potential, for physique?

 

[Johnsonville]

I haven't read the Reload book (link) yet but it might be worth checking out. But my concern is that you feel that Starting Strength was taking too long, which is a program ran only 3x per week and involves 3 lifts per workout at 3 sets of 5 reps (except for the deadlift which is 1 set of 5). That's not a lot of training compared to other programs.

You could also check out @Glen 's recommendation in this thread (link). He mentions doing 4 lifts at 5x5 but doing 2 on one day and the other 2 on a separate day.

Thanks I’ll check out the reload book! And the problem with the hlm (I haven’t run the novice 3x5 in about a year) was that when intensity got really high I needed almost 10 minutes between work sets which ended up taking around two hours when it was all said and done because warmups too.

 

[Johnsonville]

Incorrect assumption. Moving into HLM after Starting Strength LP, the sessions I did took up to 2 hours and were the hardest training I've ever done. And this was long after achieving Sinister.



Seems the pertinent question is: What is your strength goal relative to your current strength level? Do you want to continue getting stronger? Maintain and work on endurance? And on hypertrophy --for more lean mass, for strength potential, for physique?

I was only listing my priorities from the list given to me, honestly all I care about is strength from a barbell program. I would like to improve my overhead press, deadlift, and squat while training bjj and Muay Thai 8 hours a week if possible. To be exact, a 500lb deadlift and 200lb press would make me very happy in a years time, but my strength training really took a hit when I resumed my martial arts training. I’d prefer a shorter program and also one that wouldn’t beat me to death so I can train but I do understand it’s a bit of a tall order. And I appreciate your response by the way!

 

[Tarzan]

If you're already doing Muay Thai and BJJ then adding in all that strength training you'd have to be a freak to recover properly and keep making gains in the gym long term with the type of program you're on.

Your gains come in the recovery time when you're at rest, weight training just provides the stimulus for that to occur. So if you haven't got time to recover properly between weightlifting sessions your gains will stall every time. I'd be looking at two or three gym sessions each week max and probably not be too focused on setting any strength records. BJJ benefits a lot from brute strength but endurance is also important there and Muay Thai is a power sport so a higher rep format that adds a few quick lifts for power development could help you for both power and endurance. Train slow all the time and you get slow. Some of the kettlebell programs are great for both power and endurance.

Look for something that's not going to beat you up so you can perform well at BJJ and Muay Thai.

 

[Anna C]

So if you haven't got time to recover properly between weightlifting sessions your gains will stall every time.

+1

 

[Johnsonville]

If you're already doing Muay Thai and BJJ then adding in all that strength training you'd have to be a freak to recover properly and keep making gains in the gym long term with the type of program you're on.

Your gains come in the recovery time when you're at rest, weight training just provides the stimulus for that to occur. So if you haven't got time to recover properly between weightlifting sessions your gains will stall every time. I'd be looking at two or three gym sessions each week max and probably not be too focused on setting any strength records. BJJ benefits a lot from brute strength but endurance is also important there and Muay Thai is a power sport so a higher rep format that adds a few quick lifts for power development could help you for both power and endurance. Train slow all the time and you get slow. Some of the kettlebell programs are great for both power and endurance.

Look for something that's not going to beat you up so you can perform well at BJJ and Muay Thai.

Right I saw this first hand once I started training again, especially when it came to volume. My intensity didn’t really suffer but i could only get one good rep in rather than 5. I was thinking of trying dan John’s two day a week program for a month and see how it goes. It seems like a light enough workload to make some progress. I appreciate the response

 

[Anna C]

honestly all I care about is strength from a barbell program. I would like to improve my overhead press, deadlift, and squat while training bjj and Muay Thai 8 hours a week if possible. To be exact, a 500lb deadlift and 200lb press would make me very happy in a years time, but my strength training really took a hit when I resumed my martial arts training. I’d prefer a shorter program and also one that wouldn’t beat me to death so I can train but I do understand it’s a bit of a tall order. And I appreciate your response by the way!

Good, that's specific! My next question would be, what is your current bodyweight and body composition relative to what you want it to be in a year's time? i.e. do you want to put on lean mass, or specifically not want to get any heavier?

 

[Johnsonville]

Good, that's specific! My next question would be, what is your current bodyweight and body composition relative to what you want it to be in a year's time? i.e. do you want to put on lean mass, or specifically not want to get any heavier?

I’m 5’11” and 200lbs, down from 245 in nine months. Around 20% body fat I would roughly assume. Hypotrophy doesn’t matter much to me, it would be cool to gain muscle but I’d much rather have that be a side effect of strength gain, but I am not afraid to gain weight at all.

 

[Anna C]

OK, clearer picture... thanks.

Before you move to something different, a couple of things you might want to explore:

160 squat x1 due to patellar tendinitis making it hard to train

Any idea of the cause? Have you had your form checked or tweaked? Is there a variation of squat that you can train without aggravating it? Do you have any medical guidance to follow?

Whether or not you include squats right now is an important factor.

Andy bakers hlm for the past year with good results but the workouts are starting to take too long, I am stalled on almost everything since resuming boxing and bjj assuming from over training

There's two problems here. On the "starting to take too long", I understand the 10 min between working sets but you could try limiting this to 6 or 7 minutes. You might have to back off the weight just a tiny bit, but likely you're just as good in 7.

But the bigger problem is the overtraining. You can't make the programmed increases on that sort of program if you're not recovering (i.e. resting) between sessions. So... slower increases, maybe twice per week... adjustments could be made to what you're doing without changing it out completely.

But if you do want to change it out, PTTP or Reload might be good programs to try.

 

[Johnsonville]

OK, clearer picture... thanks.

Before you move to something different, a couple of things you might want to explore:



Any idea of the cause? Have you had your form checked or tweaked? Is there a variation of squat that you can train without aggravating it? Do you have any medical guidance to follow?

Whether or not you include squats right now is an important factor.



There's two problems here. On the "starting to take too long", I understand the 10 min between working sets but you could try limiting this to 6 or 7 minutes. You might have to back off the weight just a tiny bit, but likely you're just as good in 7.

But the bigger problem is the overtraining. You can't make the programmed increases on that sort of program if you're not recovering (i.e. resting) between sessions. So... slower increases, maybe twice per week... adjustments could be made to what you're doing without changing it out completely.

But if you do want to change it out, PTTP or Reload might be good programs to try.

I would really like to include squats and get my squat above 315 asap. The patellar tendinitis has shown up in mri’s long before I began lifting weights so I think it’s Maybe just the anatomy of my knee causing it. Low bar squats did not aggravate it but it did aggravate my elbow tendinitis, which is far worse for me and affects my ability to work, so I recently switched back to high bar and really concentrating on driving my knees out and keeping the weight mid foot. My highest squat was 435 for 3 sets of 5 three years ago so it’s a lift that my body really takes well to.

You have a good point about shortening the rest periods, I am very open to that. The current model I run is Andy bakers version that has four work sets across on heavy day, and I was wondering if it would benefit me to drop the sets down to one work set and four ramp up sets like Bill Starr wrote in strongest will survive. My only concern is that it isn’t enough stress to cause adaption.

I really like the idea behind pttp and doing simple and sinister along it, but my back really doesn’t like deadlifting more than twice a week no matter how much I back off the load.

 

[SuperGirevik]

@Anna C, thanks for the clarification. It seemed short on paper but I didn't realize how lengthy the rest times could be.

@Johnsonville, perhaps you could substitute deadlifts for squats using the PTTP program and mix in simple & sinister. If so, I would recommend doing PTTP with squats and bench (legs + chest) and use S&S (swings = Power deadlifts, TGUs for the shoulders).

I'm not sure what the others think.

 

[Pavel Macek]

What is priority?

Muay Thai and BJJ? Then > Easy Strength, PTTP!, S&S...

Lifting numbers, muscles, etc.? Then > Many options.

 

[Johnsonville]

@Anna C, thanks for the clarification. It seemed short on paper but I didn't realize how lengthy the rest times could be.

@Johnsonville, perhaps you could substitute deadlifts for squats using the PTTP program and mix in simple & sinister. If so, I would recommend doing PTTP with squats and bench (legs + chest) and use S&S (swings = Power deadlifts, TGUs for the shoulders).

I'm not sure what the others think.

@Anna C, thanks for the clarification. It seemed short on paper but I didn't realize how lengthy the rest times could be.

@Johnsonville, perhaps you could substitute deadlifts for squats using the PTTP program and mix in simple & sinister. If so, I would recommend doing PTTP with squats and bench (legs + chest) and use S&S (swings = Power deadlifts, TGUs for the shoulders).

I'm not sure what the others think.

this does sound like a good idea and I am curious as well as to what others think!

 

[Johnsonville]

What is priority?

Muay Thai and BJJ? Then > Easy Strength, PTTP!, S&S...

Lifting numbers, muscles, etc.? Then > Many options.

Priority is Muay Thai and bjj for at least the next six months. Sounds like easy strength and pttp are the best choices. My only small issue is that my back does not react well to deadlifting more than twice a week. Any recommendations on what to do? I appreciate the advice as well!

 

[Anna C]

I would really like to include squats and get my squat above 315 asap. The patellar tendinitis has shown up in mri’s long before I began lifting weights so I think it’s Maybe just the anatomy of my knee causing it. Low bar squats did not aggravate it but it did aggravate my elbow tendinitis, which is far worse for me and affects my ability to work, so I recently switched back to high bar and really concentrating on driving my knees out and keeping the weight mid foot. My highest squat was 435 for 3 sets of 5 three years ago so it’s a lift that my body really takes well to.

Might be worth taking a look at your form... would be happy to give some feedback if you want to link a video.

You have a good point about shortening the rest periods, I am very open to that. The current model I run is Andy bakers version that has four work sets across on heavy day, and I was wondering if it would benefit me to drop the sets down to one work set and four ramp up sets like Bill Starr wrote in strongest will survive. My only concern is that it isn’t enough stress to cause adaption.

The only way to know is to try. And the "stress causing adaptation" is mixed in with the other stress, so all depends on which way it's pushing you, and if your body can recover and adapt.

@Johnsonville, perhaps you could substitute deadlifts for squats using the PTTP program and mix in simple & sinister. If so, I would recommend doing PTTP with squats and bench (legs + chest) and use S&S (swings = Power deadlifts, TGUs for the shoulders).

Yes, something like this is mentioned in the SFL manual as an option for the other lifts. Worth a try!

my back does not react well to deadlifting more than twice a week.

Also, consider a form check!

 

[SuperGirevik]

@Anna C, +1 for form checks.

I personally record myself constantly when training. You will be surprised at how bad your "good" form can be...