Introduction and Question: Bodyweight Alternative to S&S while recovering?

Discussion in 'Masters (50+ years old)' started by Ken_, Mar 17, 2018.

  1. Ken_

    Ken_ Double-Digit Post Count

    Here is my introduction:
    Age/Height/Weight:57, 5ft 9in, 65-69kg. Best sport: middle distance running. 2001 Seattle Masters champion in 1600m. Ran in the 1999 Boston marathon. Been jogging 30min 2-3 times/week since 2001. Quit jogging in 2017 due to knee minor knee soreness.

    History: 1979-2014 Weight Training 8-12 reps going from large to small muscle groups. 1-3 times a week. Never got really strong but stayed in shape.
    2014-2016 Bodyweight Training using BW alternatives to the weight training I did before, based on YAYOG. In 2016 I also practiced NW.
    2017 - 2018 S&S. Took 6 months of group lessons at a SF Kettlebell gym. Then started S&S at 16kg, progressed to 24kg. Felt ready to go to 28kg, but started getting niggling shoulder soreness (probably from the GU), and soreness in the right forearm (probably from 1H swing). I've never had issues like this before.

    So I changed from 1H to 2H swings, and although that improved things the soreness was still there. I also read some posts here and realized I wasn't taking enough rest. I was basically doing the swings in around 5min every time, and the GU's in 10min. Then this week I started getting a sore lower back.

    So I've decided to take a break from S&S until the soreness goes away. I will do some conditioning instead, jogging including some 4-5 min tabatas. I am thinking of doing a BW routine as an alternative to S&S, maybe NW? I don't think that will aggravate my soreness, as I was able to do bench presses 5 reps x 2 during the weekday at the gym at my workplace without any issues (unfortunately I just stopped working there)

    When I did NW before I could only do about 2-3 reps of OL squats going to around a 90 degree knee bend. I used to do them on stairs and could get down to about 2 steps high. For the OAPU I could only do 2-3 reps inclined at 3 steps high. I'd do 3 sets a day. Is that enough reps? If not what is the minimum reps/day that should be done? Thanks for any suggestions.
  2. Ken_

    Ken_ Double-Digit Post Count

    Correction: 1979-2014 Weight Training 3 x 8-12 reps ...
  3. Steve Freides

    Steve Freides Forum Administrator Senior Certified Instructor

    @Ken, welcome to the StrongFirst forum.

  4. pet'

    pet' More than 5000 posts

  5. Anna C

    Anna C More than 5000 posts Elite Certified Instructor

    Welcome @Ken_ !

    You didn't ask specifically about troubleshooting the cause of the shoulder soreness, but if you'd like to return to kettlebells, it's worth investigating. The 6 months of group lessons at a SF Kettlebell gym probably got your form pretty good, but you may be onto something with suspecting the get-up. There are many points the get-up where you can lose shoulder packing and the shoulders end up complaining. Just as one example, I noticed after years of doing get-ups that my right shoulder, when doing a get-up with the kettlebell in the left hand, would be slightly shrugged up when I would do the low sweep and move into tripod position. This took some focused internal effort to fix, and I don't think it's something that anyone watching me would be likely to notice it. Unweighted slow get-ups can be a great way to find these little details.

    As for the forearm, yes, could be the 1H swing. If you'd like to post some form check videos we could help you dial in your form better... because EVERYONE can dial in their form better. It's a never-ending quest.
    crazycanuck and offwidth like this.
  6. 305pelusa

    305pelusa Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    The OL Squat can be a little stressful if you're only capable of a couple of reps, especially if it's only 90 degrees. Your knee actually comes back in (behind your toes) in the bottom of the squat and I find it a pretty comfortable position. But 90 degrees and coming back up can be rough, especially if you don't do these ever (your knee will shake significantly). For OAPU, I think 2-3 reps is an OK starting point but you'll want to slowly add a bit to that as you get stronger.

    But just out of curiosity:
    What'd you think of YAYOG? I've heard some pretty good reviews. Why not work on that for a bit? TNW is a great choice too of course. I'm just curious. I like that YAYOG does also incorporate some easier exercises (just regular squats and lunges for instance) and possibly a bit of cardio? It's been a while since I read it.
  7. Ken_

    Ken_ Double-Digit Post Count

    Thanks. Strength Aerobics looks interesting but pullups are out for me right now because when I do them I can feel the soreness in my right forearm.

    Yes I would like to return to S&S again. I'm thinking of going to a specialist or physiotherapist who is familiar with kettlebells and see what they say. Then when I'm ready again will go back to the KB gym and take some 1 0n 1 lessons to check my form.
    I thought the YAYOG book was pretty good. I made my own periodization schedule from it. 1 month of ladders for endurance 3 times a week, 1 month of 3 x 8-12 reps for a strength/endurance mix, 1 month of 3 x 3-5 reps for strength, then 1 month of 20 minute BW complexes with little or no rest. Then repeat.

    If I go back to that I may just do his 20 minute workouts 3 times a week. Thanks 305pesula. I'm going to get a heart rate monitor for my running so if I do YAYOG I can try it using A&A or Mafetone method.
  8. Ken_

    Ken_ Double-Digit Post Count

  9. Anna C

    Anna C More than 5000 posts Elite Certified Instructor

    @Ken_ , excellent job with the video. That helps a lot.

    Basically looks pretty good! Nice work with that weight. The get-ups look solid, no major issues.

    The main thing I see on the swing is that you could pack your shoulder much better. See the distance between you ear and shoulder in the bottom photo? You should have the same distance between your ear and shoulder in the top photo. Try simulating a swing and measure the distance between your ear and shoulder with your other hand when your arm is straight out as it is at the top of the swing. Now, pull the shoulder DOWN... maximize the distance between ear and shoulder... until it's the same measure as when you are standing. That is where it should stay throughout the swing.

    It's hard to re-pattern this with a heavy bell. You may need to practice with a really, really light bell and almost a T-rex swing where you keep your shoulder almost immobile, then slowly work towards a swing where the shoulder stays packed throughout, then move up in weight and do the same.


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  10. Oscar

    Oscar Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    If your goal is going back to simple and sinister, I'd to something that carries over well to swings and TGU.

    Since you consider that doing pull ups might bother your forearm soreness, I understand that soreness is from the grip. Being so, an alternative I would consider is temporarily doing your 1hs with a strap around your wrist, like deadlifters do. That might reduce the load on the grip. Just an idea.

    if you can't swing or deadlift, I would prefer doing low bar back squats rather than pistols, since I think it swill carry over better to swings.

    About your video, it appears to me you are using some shoulder strength to lift the kb during swings. That might bother your lower back I think.

    Good luck, hope you can go back to s&s soon!
  11. Ken_

    Ken_ Double-Digit Post Count

    Thank you both.

    @Anna, much appreciated. I wasn't aware of my shoulders rising up on the swing being an issue, so nice catch! When I'm ready to do S&S again, I will practice keeping my shoulders packed down starting with my lightest weight (12kg).

    @Oscar, I'm not sure the forearm soreness is from the grip, because I notice I can do pull ups with much less pain on a pull up bar that has bars pointing towards you, so that you are pulling up with your palms facing each other.

    Re my swings I am trying to use no shoulder strength and all from the leverage from the hinge. I just looked at my shoulder when doing the swing action in the mirror, trying to keep my shoulder packed down, but I notice that the shoulder still rises up a little, even though I'm pushing it down. Maybe that is just the way I'm built, but I will make a conscious effort to push them down when I get back into it.

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