Kettlebell Is a big upper body pull a deficiency in S&S?

[watchnerd]

OK, I would think you would retract your working side scapula in the initial floor press on the get up, I know I do. I know it's not done within the context of a true pull, but it's there if you really want to be technical.

Packing the shoulder isometrically in a locked out press position is not the same thing as pulling your elbow behind the plane of your shoulders while your scapula moves.

I do a *lot* of heavy weight overhead shoulder packing when I barbell snatch and jerk and I still doing rowing exercises because it's not the same thing.

If they were the same, we wouldn't need the advice to tell bench pressers to row/pull as much (or more often) as they bench.

Again, people may not feel the need to pull or row, but let's not pretend that bio-mechanically fixing your shoulder blades into a static position as part of a press is the same as pulling.

S&S is a minimal program.

It's lacking in some areas, upper body pulling being one of them.

Whether someone cares about that or not is another issue.

 

[james_1127]

IMO I think upper body pulling is important, especially for desk type professions... but I don't think that means you have to extensively train them... S&S is great, it's a minimal GPP program and if executed properly lays a great foundation to build off of... but it has some gaps (like every program in the world does) so just fill the gaps in on your warmups/prep stuff... today I did

Prep:
OS resets
TRX Y's & T's 2x10 each movement
Carries

Training:
Get ups @24kg 1+1, 28kg 1+1, 32kg 2x 1+1
Powertrain 10min block med day (I did 8 rounds)

I hit all the patterns, focuses on get ups, swings, and goblet sqt's... filled in the gaps with the other stuff

For non-minimalist weightlifting/powerlifting programs that are 4ish days in nature (think 5/3/1 or reloaded type setup) that have a lot asst type exercises you have to neglect other stuff unless you have 6 days a week and 1+ hrs to train (which most ppl dont) then you're neglecting endurance, or mobility etc... it really just comes down to goal/priority & frequency you have to train

 

[watchnerd]

IMO I think upper body pulling is important, especially for desk type professions... but I don't think that means you have to extensively train them... S&S is great, it's a minimal GPP program and if executed properly lays a great foundation to build off of... but it has some gaps (like every program in the world does) so just fill the gaps in on your warmups/prep stuff... today I did

I agree that many desk jockeys could use some remedial pulling and/or thoracic mobility work.

Another option is to do 1 less set of TGUs a few times a week, and spend the time doing a few sets up upper back work.

It's not going to make or break you if on some days you do 4 sets of TGUs instead of 5.

 

[Steve Freides]

the advice to tell bench pressers to row/pull as much (or more often) as they bench.

That's advice I've never followed. I don't do rows. I've had trainers at my local YMCA, when I used to work out there, actually teach me to do a bodybuilder's lat spread because they want to show my lats to other gym members.

Completeness in lifting programs is highly overrated, IMO. More well in all directions, but the more you advance, the more you should continue to work your main lifts and do accessory work only for what you need, and not for what you think makes your workouts "complete."

-S-

 

[watchnerd]

That's advice I've never followed. I don't do rows. I've had trainers at my local YMCA, when I used to work out there, actually teach me to do a bodybuilder's lat spread because they want to show my lats to other gym members.

Completeness in lifting programs is highly overrated, IMO. More well in all directions, but the more you advance, the more you should continue to work your main lifts and do accessory work only for what you need, and not for what you think makes your workouts "complete."

-S-

Yeah, if you don't need the accessory, you don't need it.

BTW, do you also compete in bench? I thought you were a DL specialist in PL meets.

 

[Steve Freides]

Yeah, if you don't need the accessory, you don't need it.

BTW, do you also compete in bench? I thought you were a DL specialist in PL meets.

I did a few 3-lift meets when I started in 2004, then switched to DL only, and then about a year and a half ago, I started doing all 3 lifts again. I had an awful handoff for my 3rd lift at my most recent meet, totally my fault, too, but I have my sights set on a 1.5 x bodyweight BP, which is about 100 kg for me. I may do some DL-only meets along the way but right now, my interest is in trying to get my total, which is Elite in the USPA, up to the top category, which is International Elite. So I'm basically a novice at SQ and BP.

-S-

 

[watchnerd]

I did a few 3-lift meets when I started in 2004, then switched to DL only, and then about a year and a half ago, I started doing all 3 lifts again. I had an awful handoff for my 3rd lift at my most recent meet, totally my fault, too, but I have my sights set on a 1.5 x bodyweight BP, which is about 100 kg for me. I may do some DL-only meets along the way but right now, my interest is in trying to get my total, which is Elite in the USPA, up to the top category, which is International Elite. So I'm basically a novice at SQ and BP.

-S-

That's awesome!

 

[Steve Freides]

That's awesome!

It's not very difficult to achieve a high ranking at my age and weight - there are so few competitors, and apparently the rankings are done by certain percentages of meet results. The announcers at meets sometimes make a big deal of the fact that I'm still doing all three lifts at age 67 - not sure why that should be remarkable.

-S-

 

[Steve A]

Packing the shoulder isometrically in a locked out press position is not the same thing as pulling your elbow behind the plane of your shoulders while your scapula moves.

Again, people may not feel the need to pull or row, but let's not pretend that bio-mechanically fixing your shoulder blades into a static position as part of a press is the same as pulling.

For all the people that will say "well do X and tell me what you feel..." - if the isometric really covers the bases, a Bullworker is cheap!

 

[Steve A]

That's advice I've never followed. I don't do rows. I've had trainers at my local YMCA, when I used to work out there, actually teach me to do a bodybuilder's lat spread because they want to show my lats to other gym members.

Completeness in lifting programs is highly overrated, IMO. More well in all directions, but the more you advance, the more you should continue to work your main lifts and do accessory work only for what you need, and not for what you think makes your workouts "complete."

-S-

Steve, you essentially specialized in the DL before getting "heavy" into benching. Far too many guys (and I've known many personally) have gotten into trouble with BP-focused upper body work (and as others have noted, with desk-focused upper body work). Whether we label it balance or completeness or whatever, for the BP the rowing type work is not over-rated.

 

[Steve Freides]

Steve, you essentially specialized in the DL before getting "heavy" into benching. Far too many guys (and I've known many personally) have gotten into trouble with BP-focused upper body work (and as others have noted, with desk-focused upper body work). Whether we label it balance or completeness or whatever, for the BP the rowing type work is not over-rated.

@Steve A, I use my lats a lot in my BP. I row the bar down to my chest. I would posit that, although "for the BP the rowing work is not over-rated," this only the case for those who don't stay tight on the way down in their BP. And IMHO, better to fix your BP technique than to rely on another exercise.

Just one more note on the BP - I have severe arthritis in both shoulders, and a torn labrum in one (and likely the other as well). My shoulders feel better after I BP.

JMO, YMMV.

-S-

 

[Steve A]

@Steve A, I use my lats a lot in my BP. I'm row the bar down to my chest. I would posit that, although "for the BP the rowing work is not over-rated," this only the case for those who don't stay tight on the way down in their BP. And IMHO, better to fix your BP technique than to rely on another exercise.

Steve, over the years I've heard and read so many variants on what you have just said. And yet no "school" of performance can point to any broad-based long term success. I don't think you should posit that - it is what you are aiming to prove (for your n=1).

Just one more note on the BP - I have severe arthritis in both shoulders, and a torn labrum in one (and likely the other as well). My shoulders feel better after I BP.

JMO, YMMV.

-S-

You may not recognize it, but you are a bit unique in your response. Consider yourself fortunate on this one.

In any case, starting with DL emphasis, and then benching for low/modest volumes with great attention to detail, is not the norm. It isn't YMMayV, it is YMVeryProbablyWillV.

 

[watchnerd]

In any case, starting with DL emphasis, and then benching for low/modest volumes with great attention to detail, is not the norm. It isn't YMMayV, it is YMVeryProbablyWillV.

My shoulders do fine with bench press if I don't go very heavy or do it very often or high volume.

I can do reps of flat bench of 100 kg / 225 lbs more or less at will*, year round.

(* how many reps will depend a lot on how much snatching / C&J I've been doing)

But I'm not going to win any PL meets in my age/weight class by training bench like that.