Old Forum KB Swing 1ft above skull?

[zachgheaja]

I do apologize if this has been covered, but I could not find a forum search function.

I have noticed in some circles there is the propensity to perform the kettlebell swing to a range of motion that ends with the kettlebell high in the air up above the skull.   I am clueless as to possible reasons for this and am curious.  I do not plan on doing it this way, regardless, I am interested in the reasoning.

I've seen this variation performed  in "The Supple Leopard"  by Kelly Starrett.  I will go on record that his pullup technique advice has helped me tremendously.  But most of the book features very odd looking exercise form,  which is puzzling, as this book is meant to be correctional.  Maybe its the author's body structure that is throwing me off, he looks really tight or on the balls of his feet when he should be on his heels.  Probably was not the best idea to model for his own book, but hey I'm ranting now.

Another example:

http://worldkettlebellclub.com/kettlebell-swing-hip-snap-bullcrap/

I stumbled onto this article, which says something to the effect of "Valery mastered the snatch, but Pavel didnt" .  as well as the claim of Valery was first to have brought the kettlebells to the united states.  Which honestly,  is irrelevant at this point, at least in my mind.  So obviously I am not viewing this site with any sort of credibility. Basically it seems this guy has a hard-on for Pavel.  And i surmised this during a grand total of 30 seconds exploring the content.

One reason I can come up with NOT to swing the bell over your head is it looks incredibly easy to over extend your spine into a compromising position not to mention the extra probability of dropping the bell on your face.  This seems counter-intuitive to the over all safe movement the  swing should be.

Thanks for your input.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rickard]

Most often cited reason I've heard is shoulder injury due to the motion. It's hard to pack the shoulder when doing a swing that ends up over your head.

 

[hardstyler]

Hi, here is a great article about why too high swings are not healthy:

http://breakingmuscle.com/kettlebells/rationalizing-the-swing-why-the-american-swing-is-wrong

 

[EricJMoss]

With the article regarding Valery Fedorenko...it's mainly  different uses and different strokes for different folks.  We use the kettlebell snatch as a means to an end...not the end.  And to paraphrase the official opinion held by StrongFirst...we aren't saying hes's wrong, we're just saying that we're right...and have been praised by some of the most well regarded people out there...like Cook and McGill

On top of the why not to do it...is the why bother?  I don't see any reason to in my training and I don't do it.

 

[Train2Train]

As Pavel says in the book Easy Strength "the swing is a projection of force, the snatch is the elevation of force". No matter how light a kettlebell you use and how powerful you are it should never go higher than shoulder level. The force should be projected straight out in front of you and your arms should feel like they are being pulled forward but do not let that happen. Keep them in their sockets and use your lats to guide them back (hike pass). Hope this visualization helps

 

[zachgheaja]

I can hazard a guess as towards the difference in the "mastered snatch" and what Pavel has taught. The only thing i can come up with is instead of the hinge at the bottom there is the parking of the bell and the squat movement at the bottom of the ROM instead of the hike pass/hinge. I used to do DB snatches that way.  I could see both having their pros and cons.  But when the first thing I see is "poo poo Pavel" in a terribly written article, I'm tuning out.

However what I'm seeing is referred to the "american swing", boggles my mind.  What I have read is the rationale is 'you're working harder because it's going higher and therefore more intensity".   This movement just looks so clearly wrong for you that it fascinates me.

Somethings are clearly a bad idea, to quote Kenny Powers " I'm a real athlete, not trying to be the best at exercising" .

 

[Train2Train]

Also, to answer why others do it over their head. My opinion is kelly starrett (crossfit community) use the swing to fill a void as just another "functional" exercise to perform and keep the heart rate high. They are not interested in exactly how they perform it just on getting reps completed. Strongfirst uses the swing (again, not speaking for strongfirst, just my opinion) in a different way and technique for enhanced performance.  So one uses it as just another exercise and one uses it in a specific manner for enhanced performance.

 

[zachgheaja]

Ill take the enhanced performance.    The section about pullups in his book really helped me though.  It was worth my money for that alone, since that's probably about all I'm going to get out of it.

You always need to consider all sources of information though.   I have been reading Pavel since 05,06, era and I took his DEAD HANG pullups so very literally that I have been doing pullups with unpacked shoulders all this time.  Now my shoulders  are pretty healthy, so that's not an issue.  But once I learned this packed shoulder idea, I went back and could clearly see Pavel, with a bell around his waist, with packed shoulders.  Live and learn.

BTW the packed shoulders i learned from Al Kavadlo/PCC, not Starrett.

 

 

[kbkris]

Okay now I'm a little confused. Weren't there high level two handed and one handed swings in the RKC manual back in ancient times?

 

[Steve W.]

@Kris,

Yes, the overhead swing is in the original Russian Kettlebell Challenge book (don't know if was ever in the RKC instructor's manual before '09). But my impression is that Pavel put it in there more for the sake of completeness than because he was recommending it. The description in that book does include a caution about it. As far as I know, it hasn't appeared in any RKC or StrongFirst materials since.

@Zach,

It's Crossfit, so who can really understand the thinking? Maybe they think the longer bell path makes it better (IIRC, the Crossfit Journal once had an article about this). Maybe it's just a way of differentiating themselves. Maybe it's to standardize swing height for competitive situations (but in that case, why not just use the snatch). Who knows?

As far as Federenko, he's looking at it from a GS perspective. SFG/hardstyle/RKC technique is not good sport specific GS technique. From what I've seen, Valery doesn't seem to recognize the value of the hardstyle approach for GPP purposes and tends to question it's legitimacy. Maybe he also has some personal resentment of Pavel as well. But he's a very accomplished GS athlete, and I would consider him a credible source, whether you agree or disagree with anything specific he might say.

 

[Mike E]

Crossfit swings are over the head because the work done is measurable and repeatable.  Increasing work capacity is the point of crossfit workouts.   I don't know anyone who has been hurt doing over the head swings.  The very first CF workout I did included kb swings, which I did with a 12Kg kettlebell.  Three rounds of 400 meter run, 21 swings, 12 pull-ups.   The swings were the easiest part of the workout even though I had never held a kettlebell before.  Completely comfortable, no discomfort in the back or shoulders afterwards.  Of course, I was so completely gassed I'm not sure I was capable of feeling localized pain.  Fine the next day though.

 

[crt1]

Mike, someone with limited thoracic spinal & shoulder mobility (most of the US adult population) will probably force their lumbar spine into extension to get the bell to vertical.  Especially if they have short hip flexors/anterior pelvic tilt (again, most of the US adult population).