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Kettlebell Kettlebell Cardio & Endurance

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offwidth said:
I am reminded a bit about what Nassim Nicholas Taleb said in Anti-Fragile... I am totally paraphrasing and going on memory here...

We may continually come up with new reasons why certain things happen, but the results of doing those things remains the same

Words to that effect anyway...
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Sigh... Yes that's very true, however it would be nice to know some specifics, that way if someone asks me about the difference I'd have more than 3 choices to answer...

1- The truth (I don't Know)
2 - Make up something reasonable sounding
3 - Go on an igno-rant and spew some half truths and utter falsehoods.. ROFL
 
Steve Freides said:
Anna C, a group road ride is a less than ideal setting for measuring performance. (I know you must know this, just pointing it out.) The group's speed isn't going to change because one person got faster, so much of it is staying out of the wind, etc. I'd think a solo, e.g., a time trial, might be place where one could spot a difference on the clock.
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Mostly true, although our group rides are usually 3-4 people and the speed is usually affected if one person gets faster, and/or we'll split up for parts of the ride. Or we make them pull more. :) As for a solo time trial, these are often affected by wind and temperature conditions even on the same road course, so they don't seem completely reliable either. I used to do those regularly in 2009-2012 but haven't much lately.
 
Anna C said:
Mostly true, although our group rides are usually 3-4 people and the speed is usually affected if one person gets faster, and/or we'll split up for parts of the ride. Or we make them pull more. :) As for a solo time trial, these are often affected by wind and temperature conditions even on the same road course, so they don't seem completely reliable either. I used to do those regularly in 2009-2012 but haven't much lately.
Click to expand...
Try riding in a fast paceline with 10 people...
 
Bret S. said:
Sigh... Yes that's very true, however it would be nice to know some specifics, that way if someone asks me about the difference I'd have more than 3 choices to answer...

1- The truth (I don't Know)
2 - Make up something reasonable sounding
3 - Go on an igno-rant and spew some half truths and utter falsehoods.. ROFL
Click to expand...
I like both 2 & 3...
 
Anna C said:
Mostly true, although our group rides are usually 3-4 people and the speed is usually affected if one person gets faster, and/or we'll split up for parts of the ride. Or we make them pull more. :) As for a solo time trial, these are often affected by wind and temperature conditions even on the same road course, so they don't seem completely reliable either. I used to do those regularly in 2009-2012 but haven't much lately.
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Ah, yes, many memories. Besides doing club rides, I often rode with a couple of friends, both of whom were slower than me, so I basically took all the pulls or almost all. It got to the point where I'd take out a fixed gear with them.

-S-
 
Steve Freides said:
Ah, yes, many memories. Besides doing club rides, I often rode with a couple of friends, both of whom were slower than me, so I basically took all the pulls or almost all. It got to the point where I'd take out a fixed gear with them.

-S-
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If you don't mind me asking Steve... why the past tense? Why not still ride?
 
To go back to some of the questions about VWC and cross training, how about another hypothetical, but very real situational question.

Weekend Warrior Athletes

What about those people and those sports that for logistical reasons can only be practiced in a very limited way?

Specificity is a good answer to the training question only if it is accessible. One example would be seasonal and outdoor sports like skiing, surfing, MTB. A typical enthusiast might only be able to get on real trails, the ski hill, or the waves on weekends. Maybe they can squeeze in a shorter session midweek. Or a team sport league like soccer, rugby, or hockey. You have a weekly match, and maybe you can find another pickup game. You still have plenty of time to train throughout the week, just not in your choice sport(s).

What do you do?

Some things may be obvious, like soccer players can run, MTBers can road ride and bike commute. For years when I was younger this was my dilemma for surfing and then for skiing. Due to their seasonal nature and not living close to the beach or ski hill meant I had to do what I could. The best arrangement was inline skating as ski training. Using a big empty parking lot as a track, I did an endurance effort speed skater style, building up speed, then blasting a set of tight slalom turns until I stopped. Over and over, keeping my technique as close to skiing as possible, rather than hockey style turns. Since carving turns on skates is very similar to skis it worked brilliantly. This was back in the days of narrow, straight, stiff race skis.

S&S, VWC, PTTP, ES, MAF, WTH?! an alphabet soup of choices, how do you choose when specificity isn't available?
 
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offwidth said:
If you don't mind me asking Steve... why the past tense? Why not still ride?
Click to expand...

I don't have a super-short answer but I'll explain as best I'm able.

Before my back injury, I ran, swam, and bicycled. As I returned to health, I realized I needed strength and began strength training. As I began deadlifting, I noticed a pattern as regards my back, bicycling, and deadlifting. Here's how it works for me.

I do very little stretching of my lower back. My problem originates with lax connective tissue in my lower back - it was weak and overstretched from whatever I did in my life up until age 42, and although it's no longer weak, the damage that's been done to tendons and ligaments is done. My back, as a rule, doesn't generally feel great, but it's acceptable - I must leave it be a little on the tight side for it to work properly in my activities of daily living.

Now when I ride a bike, my back _feels_ better because it gets stretched out very nicely, but it functions worse. In particular, I wake up that night with leg cramps, which are really phantom leg cramps because it isn't muscle fatigue that causes them but rather it's pressure on the nerves to my legs that run through my lower back. And I've also noticed that deadlifting just feels plain wrong right after a bike ride, and even the day after a bike ride; I have to wait a couple of days before I can deadlift again.

So if I ride a bike, it means derailing my weight training and potentially causing me a rather painful, sleepless night.

After my back blew out, I was on Percoset 24/7 for 3 weeks. I don't ever want to live like that again. The medicine would work for about 2 hours at a time, so I'd sleep for about 2 hours at a time, and, well, you get the idea.

I can ride once in a while, if I don't do it for very long and if I don't do it again for at least a few days afterwards and if I don't mind not lifting. That kind of schedule doesn't happen for me very often, and I don't try to make it happen, either. I'm content with my slightly stiff, amply strong lumbar spine, thank you very much. :)

-S-
 
Thanks for the detailed answer Steve. I somehow thought it was related to your back.


If I'm not mistaken in my m memory doesn't Pavel caution against cycling in close time proximity to swings in S&S?

Thanks again...
 
vegpedlr said:
The best arrangement was inline skating as ski training. Using a big empty parking lot as a track, I did an endurance effort speed skater style, building up speed, then blasting a set of tight slalom turns until I stopped. Over and over, keeping my technique as close to skiing as possible, rather than hockey style turns. Since carving turns on skates is very similar to skis it worked brilliantly. This was back in the days of narrow, straight, stiff race skis.
Click to expand...
I always hated turning on inline skates as I grew up playing ice hockey, and for fast stops, fuhgedaboudittt...

vegpedlr said:
S&S, VWC, PTTP, ES, MAF, WTH?! an alphabet soup of choices, how do you choose when specificity isn't available?
Click to expand...
Pick one and hope?
 
offwidth said:
If I'm not mistaken in my m memory doesn't Pavel caution against cycling in close time proximity to swings in S&S?

Thanks again...
Click to expand...
Interesting. I find doing swings after riding feels good, helping "unfold" myself from my bike position. But swings after running feel terrible, making my low back and hips feel awkwardly tight.

@Bret S.
Yes, the stopping issue. Probably why they faded away. You can get way too much speed for the braking power available. That's why I usually trained in either empty parking lots or paved bike paths. But as an alpine skier, I had to consciously remind myself to keep the weight on the outside foot, like skiing, and not allow the inside leg to take over and tighten the turn in a way impossible on 200 cm skis. I never went as far as skate with poles, though I did try to keep upper body balance similar.
 
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vegpedlr said:
To go back to some of the questions about VWC and cross training, how about another hypothetical, but very real situational question.

Weekend Warrior Athletes

What about those people and those sports that for logistical reasons can only be practiced in a very limited way?

Specificity is a good answer to the training question only if it is accessible. One example would be seasonal and outdoor sports like skiing, surfing, MTB. A typical enthusiast might only be able to get on real trails, the ski hill, or the waves on weekends. Maybe they can squeeze in a shorter session midweek. Or a team sport league like soccer, rugby, or hockey. You have a weekly match, and maybe you can find another pickup game. You still have plenty of time to train throughout the week, just not in your choice sport(s).

What do you do?

Some things may be obvious, like soccer players can run, MTBers can road ride and bike commute. For years when I was younger this was my dilemma for surfing and then for skiing. Due to their seasonal nature and not living close to the beach or ski hill meant I had to do what I could. The best arrangement was inline skating as ski training. Using a big empty parking lot as a track, I did an endurance effort speed skater style, building up speed, then blasting a set of tight slalom turns until I stopped. Over and over, keeping my technique as close to skiing as possible, rather than hockey style turns. Since carving turns on skates is very similar to skis it worked brilliantly. This was back in the days of narrow, straight, stiff race skis.

S&S, VWC, PTTP, ES, MAF, WTH?! an alphabet soup of choices, how do you choose when specificity isn't available?
Click to expand...
If you want to get good (I mean really good) then a person needs to move. (And maybe quit their day job :)) You aren't gonna be a world class big wave rider living in Nebraska.
Hawaii, California, Tahiti... much better choices.
For things like surfing and climbing, and skiing, there are no real substitutes. I know, I've been there. You can workout maybe, but you can't train.

I know plenty of people who have relocated to climb, surf, study a martial art.

For less skill based pursuits... we have all the good GPP type stuff you mentioned... S&S, PTTP, VWC, etc.
 
Of course if you want to be really good you must live in the right place. Though it might be interesting to note some of the outliers. Jonny Moseley grew up on the SF Bay. Kelly Slater is from Cocoa Beach, FL, which does have waves, sort of. But even if you live in the right place, it's still hit or miss. Not much skiing in Jackson in Aug. Despite the portrayal in movies, surfing in CA is basically a winter sport. Whitewater is based on runoff that runs out. What to do when outside conditions aren't working?

But the other part of question applies to people everywhere that participate in sports in a limited way, like weekends. They still have time and motivation to train on weekdays, but being a gym rat isn't the goal. How best to go about it? "Dry land" training it's sometimes called.

In my ski days I used to try to follow Stev Ilg's program each fall to prepare. But it was just too much. Too much volume, too much intensity, too much BB style gym work. Then Inhad no idea how to maintain it. Being burnt out on the gym, very little got done until MTB season in the spring. I had time, motivation, but didn't know what to do or how to do it.

Max strength?
MAF aerobic endurance?
Strength and muscular endurance?
 
vegpedlr said:
What to do when outside conditions aren't working?
Click to expand...
Travel...

But for most of us who don't choose to live that lifestyle it certainly does pose challenges.

When I was living in the flat lands of the Midwest I could still train for alpine climbing (sort of). Hours of soul stealing box steps wearing boots and a pack. Hours of doing laps in the climbing gym, again wearing a pack and boots. It was a pale comparison.

It truly does depend upon how specialized our chosen craft is. Some stuff you just can't train without actually doing it. No amount of ancillary training will adequately compensate for the real thing.

In the end we do the best we can with the cards we get dealt. I guess just find stuff that most closely approximates what we are really training for. (And work on whatever GPP means to you)

(I may be luckier than most because these days I have easy year round access to most of my 'vices')
 
vegpedlr said:
To go back to some of the questions about VWC and cross training, how about another hypothetical, but very real situational question.

Weekend Warrior Athletes

What about those people and those sports that for logistical reasons can only be practiced in a very limited way?

Specificity is a good answer to the training question only if it is accessible. One example would be seasonal and outdoor sports like skiing, surfing, MTB. A typical enthusiast might only be able to get on real trails, the ski hill, or the waves on weekends. Maybe they can squeeze in a shorter session midweek. Or a team sport league like soccer, rugby, or hockey. You have a weekly match, and maybe you can find another pickup game. You still have plenty of time to train throughout the week, just not in your choice sport(s).

What do you do?

Some things may be obvious, like soccer players can run, MTBers can road ride and bike commute. For years when I was younger this was my dilemma for surfing and then for skiing. Due to their seasonal nature and not living close to the beach or ski hill meant I had to do what I could. The best arrangement was inline skating as ski training. Using a big empty parking lot as a track, I did an endurance effort speed skater style, building up speed, then blasting a set of tight slalom turns until I stopped. Over and over, keeping my technique as close to skiing as possible, rather than hockey style turns. Since carving turns on skates is very similar to skis it worked brilliantly. This was back in the days of narrow, straight, stiff race skis.

S&S, VWC, PTTP, ES, MAF, WTH?! an alphabet soup of choices, how do you choose when specificity isn't available?
Click to expand...
I have thought about exactly this question a LOT!

After resuming judo seriously, which is indoors and year round the worry about getting enough "cardio" is solved. But before this when I was off judo for a year and/or only going intermittently, clearly I needed more "cardio" training where I sweat like crazy and get my heartrate up high for a good chunk of time. I tried running around in my basement, but it took a while to get the heartrate up, was hard on the knees although otherwise alright I guess. Running outside in the Canadian winter is only for die-hards. In my case, no thanks. Walking outside also is not the greatest thing to do in the winter time here - breathing in bitterly cold air all the time isn't so awesome for your lungs. So, "enter the kettlebell" hahaha! Kettlebell swings and TGUs don't overuse any one part of the body, but they get your heart rate up real high fast and keep it up for a long time, and they make you sweat a lot, not to mention that they do strengthen you - it isn't just "cardio"! Perfect solution to getting the benefits of a sport without leaving the comfort of your own living room!

Nowadays, if I'm off judo for a bit for whatever reason I substitute S&S to keep my cardio and athleticism up to speed. Otherwise, my normal weight training now is low rep high weight stuff focussing really on a kind of PTTP template.
 
vegpedlr said:
Of course if you want to be really good you must live in the right place. Though it might be interesting to note some of the outliers. Jonny Moseley grew up on the SF Bay. Kelly Slater is from Cocoa Beach, FL, which does have waves, sort of. But even if you live in the right place, it's still hit or miss. Not much skiing in Jackson in Aug. Despite the portrayal in movies, surfing in CA is basically a winter sport. Whitewater is based on runoff that runs out. What to do when outside conditions aren't working?

But the other part of question applies to people everywhere that participate in sports in a limited way, like weekends. They still have time and motivation to train on weekdays, but being a gym rat isn't the goal. How best to go about it? "Dry land" training it's sometimes called.

In my ski days I used to try to follow Stev Ilg's program each fall to prepare. But it was just too much. Too much volume, too much intensity, too much BB style gym work. Then Inhad no idea how to maintain it. Being burnt out on the gym, very little got done until MTB season in the spring. I had time, motivation, but didn't know what to do or how to do it.

Max strength?
MAF aerobic endurance?
Strength and muscular endurance?
Click to expand...
I guess that explains the Jamaican bobsled team not standing on the podium. :-/
 
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